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-   -   TUI netherlands delay claim (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/other-european-airlines/1994247-tui-netherlands-delay-claim.html)

cass88 Nov 5, 19 5:41 pm

TUI netherlands delay claim
 
Hi

We flight TUI Netherland from Antalya to Amsterdam (OR776) on 12th Oct. Departure was supposed to be 13:05, it was delayed to 15:00, then to 16:00 and in the end departure around 16:40. As it was several weeks ago, I only remember checked the departure time on the internet and don't really remember exactly what the time is, but it was for certain over 3h. I have submitted the complaint to TUI Netherlands and request for a refund. But they have replied said according to their calculation, the delay is 2h59m.


The European Court of Justice has decided on October 23rd 2012 that passengers from a delayed flight, in particular circumstances, have the right to receive a compensation when they arrived more than three hours from the original planned arrival time at their final destination. According to our calculations, based on the time listed on your ticket and the data from the cockpit of the aircraft, is the exact time of delay from this flight, 2 hours and 59 minutes. Herewith your flight with flight number OR 776, has had an arrival delay of less than 3 hours. Therefore TUIfly will not accept any form of compensation for this flight departure.
Is this a common trick they play? Anybody had the experience to claim the money back from TUI? As I could not find the historic departure information, so I can not approve to them they are wrong. But I am quite certain it was over 3h. We have 3 adults, 2 kids (1 is under 2y), so it would be quite lots of money for them to pay back. I am thinking about using the third party agency to do the claim. Do you have any suggestions on which one to use in the Netherlands? Or is it easy to do it myself?

Thanks for your help!

Hezu Nov 6, 19 3:11 am

I think it is fairly common that airlines try to wiggle away from paying the EC261 compensations if possible.

Flightera.net information would suggest that OR776 landed 19:25, which in my maths is indeed more than 3h past the original scheduled arrival time of 16:10. So, I would at least challenge TUI's calculations and ask for clarification on how they got their timings since there is conflicting information available.

And remember that rather than departure time, the more crucial for EC261 rules is indeed the arrival time, flights in favourable winds and such you may fly faster and arrive closer to the original scheduled time.

UKtravelbear Nov 6, 19 6:31 am

Welcome

A few things

1. You need to apply for compensation under EU261 not a refund.

2. Delay is measured between the scheduled and actual times of arrival and to be pedantic for EU261 purposes the time is doors open and pasengers able to leave the aircraft. If that is more than 3 hours then based on the distance of your flight you are entitled to compensation of €400 each

3. BUT it also depends on the cause of the delay. If any part of the delay is down to weather or air traffic control then then length of that can be taken off the total delay time and if that is then less than 3 hours you won't qualify.

4. It is easy to claim yourself but you may need to be persistant. When you do send in your claim you need to be clear and consise - "I and my family was on flight XXX between AMS and AYT on 37th October which arrived 999 minutes late so I claim €400 each for the X number in my travel party"

5. It is up to TUI to prove why you don't qualify not for you to prove why you do.

AJCNL Nov 7, 19 10:49 am

A few years back we had a long delay with TUI LPA-AMS due to the scheduled 787 going tech at AMS. They eventually found 2 737s to operate the flight and we arrived back 4 hours late. I wrote a claim letter but they tried to avoid paying out by claiming it was a factory fault with the new aircraft. We exchanged a few letters, me pointing out that my contract was with them, if there was an issue when the aircraft was delivered then they should claim from Boeing. In the end they wouldn't give in, I contracted EUClaim and in the end TUI gave in and paid out. Of course EUClaim took their cut, as they were entitled to. Part of the info from EUClaim showed that they had been able to acces the official legal arrival time of the flight, which proved that the delay was a little over 4 hours. I don't know if the general public can also get that information. In theory I could have pursued them via legal means, but I was happy to hand it over to a claim bureau rather than spend too much extra time on it.

Often1 Nov 7, 19 11:06 am

This claim, once rewritten to make clear that it is for delay compensation under EC 261/2004, not a refund, is purely factual. The carrier pegs the delay at 2:59 and OP believes that the delay exceeded 3 hours.

As noted above, departure delays are irrelevant. All that matters is the scheduled arrival time and the actual arrival time. It either exceeds 3 hours or it does not.

No need to make of this more than it is.

KLouis Nov 7, 19 8:58 pm

According to FR24 that flight's actual arrival time was 3 hours and 22 minutes after the scheduled one.

Hezu Nov 8, 19 3:05 am


Originally Posted by KLouis (Post 31713698)
According to FR24 that flight's actual arrival time was 3 hours and 22 minutes after the scheduled one.

Interesting that different sites give slightly different arrival times, FlightAware says the delay was 3h15 late. But anyhow, all flight tracking sites seem to comfirm that the delay was more than three hours even if there is slight variation on how many minutes more. And I decided to see how was the flight to the opposite direction that day and OR775 AMS-AYT was also over 3 hours late, so I would say it would be hard to justify blaming any significant the part of delay on the return leg on reasons beyond airline control (and outside scope of EC261 compensations) like weather or ATC restrictions especially as the flight times that day seems to be in line with the other other flights on this route. Even if eg. ATC directed the plane to Polderbaan at AMS, that is hardly unusual even if that runway is notoriously far from the terminal.

cass88 Nov 8, 19 3:51 am

Thanks everyone for the useful information! I will write to them again with the suggestion above! Really appreciate all the help and will get back with the result!

Fabo.sk Nov 8, 19 10:35 am

This case is extremely clear cut. The scheduled time of arrival was 16:10, the aircraft landed at 19:22 and reached parking position about 7 minutes later. Even with a fairly quick jetway connection door open time could not be less than 3h 20m late.

I would ask TUI to explain how the aircraft could have arrived, according to them, while it was overflying Assendelft at the time.

ft101 Nov 9, 19 1:28 am


Originally Posted by Hezu (Post 31714331)
Interesting that different sites give slightly different arrival times . . . .

Some give gate to gate and some give wheels up to wheels down. There may be more.

cass88 Nov 28, 19 9:15 am

Hi, I finally got the reply from them, which is the same as before. They still insist it is 2h59m.


Thank you for your email. You mention that the information on various websites differs from the information from TUI.

On these websites there is only general flight data available. This information is not legally binding. The total delay was 2 hours and 59 minutes.

The official arrival times are as follows: the arrival time on the ticket was 16:30, the final flight time was 19:29.

Trusting to have provided you with sufficient information.

Indeed the ticket says the arrival will be 16:30. Is that mean they are correct? What shall I do next? I am thinking to go to the claim service instead, as it takes them 4 weeks to reply each time. Any suggestion which one is good? Thanks!

AJCNL Nov 29, 19 3:37 am


Originally Posted by cass88 (Post 31785257)
Hi, I finally got the reply from them, which is the same as before. They still insist it is 2h59m.


Indeed the ticket says the arrival will be 16:30. Is that mean they are correct? What shall I do next? I am thinking to go to the claim service instead, as it takes them 4 weeks to reply each time. Any suggestion which one is good? Thanks!

I have only ever used one, EUclaim.nl, I found them easy to use, and they succeeded in getting the compensation. Of course they took their fees, but it was better than nothing or endless contacts with Tui.

CPH-Flyer Nov 29, 19 11:02 pm


Originally Posted by cass88 (Post 31785257)
Hi, I finally got the reply from them, which is the same as before. They still insist it is 2h59m.


Indeed the ticket says the arrival will be 16:30. Is that mean they are correct? What shall I do next? I am thinking to go to the claim service instead, as it takes them 4 weeks to reply each time. Any suggestion which one is good? Thanks!

Just remember it is not exact landing time that counts, it is when the door is opened and the passengers can disembark. So if the plane landed 2h:59m late, there is zero chance they opened the door in time to avoid compensation.

MSPeconomist Nov 29, 19 11:45 pm

I'm confused. Was the scheduled arrival time 16:10 or 16:30?

irishguy28 Dec 4, 19 5:57 am

It does indeed appear that the OP was using incorrect arrival time all along.


Originally Posted by cass88 (Post 31785257)
Indeed the ticket says the arrival will be 16:30. Is that mean they are correct?

If your ticket always said that arrival would be at 16:30, then that's the time that counts.

Please also be specific - by "ticket" do you mean "booking confirmation"? Or do you mean "boarding pass"?

Please confirm for us the following:
a) the scheduled arrival time in your original booking confirmation
b) whether any schedule changes were notified to you between booking and the day of travel - if so, what was the new scheduled arrival time, and how far in advance of the date of travel you were informed.

We need to know what scheduled time of arrival was promised/advised to you - starting from what is shown on your original reservation, supplemented by any changes notified to you by the airline/travel agent between booking and the day of travel.

Until we know exactly what times were "promised" to you, we can't really say that they are incorrect. But it does seem like you have been using inaccurate times.


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