Anyone know the callsign used by the Malaysia A380 into Palma? very unusual movement!

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...a0e63f0be7.jpg

See:

https://www.theguardian.com/business...being-stranded

“Civil servants spent millions creating a pop-up airline ready to fly back Brits abroad”

This has all be frighteningly well planned.

Yes, understand what you're saying. But the flight was before the collapse, and was also 4 hours late taking off, so I wondered if speed of turn round became the deciding factor but as they were told it was take off weight that was the factor.....but we'll wait and see.

Putting my conspiracy theorists' (made of finest tin foil) hat on, I think finance/government had made up their minds up about TC some time ago: kill it dead! What we're seeing now took some pretty impressive planning. Edit: Though I see what you mean about the timing above....

that doesn't say the callsign used?

Since they're using Malaysian Airline flight numbers on the flights (MH8492, etc), they're likely using 'Malaysian xxxx' (xxxx being flight number) call sign. So far, it's operating between Manchester and Palma. I would imagine that it will be sent to other destinations after most of the stranded passengers in Palma are brought home.

Here's a tracking of that particular A380:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/9m-mnf

I don't know how many destinations can handle an A380; I'm not familiar with the A380's runway/taxiway width/load bearing requirements, but that will limit the destinations that an A380 can go to.

It operated MH991 PMI-MAN last night, replacing both of MT1087 (PMI-NCL) and MT1459 (PMI-MAN).

And several other PMI sectors today!

It's not the first time an A380 has visited PMI, though. :D Below are two pictures of Lufthansa's D-AIMC in PMI on October 2, 2010. It carried paying passengers from FRA to PMI, who enjoyed an afternoon's sightseeing while the A380 continued on to the Barcelona Air Show, before picking back up its human cargo in PMI and flying back to FRA later that evening.

MH991's not correct. They've been filing as MH84xx with air traffic control, as per at least a couple of flight tracking websites.

You are referring to today's flights.

Last night's flight was MH991.

I wonder if any Thomas Cook customers have been getting to sit in business or first class seats on the scheduled airline planes that are being used for the repatriations?

It would make sense to use all available passenger seats on each plane.

Yep. That's the way it works. I have a friend who was stranded between flights at Zurich when the old Swissair went belly up. One moment all was normal, the next moment all the staff at the various desks just picked up their bags and walked away. Fortunately for her, she was on a code share with AA (IIRC) and they took care of her. Messy.

That flight number's not listed in any flight tracking database. I understand that's what's on the CAA website but that flight number was never used.

I guess, ultimately, the flightcodes/call signs are rather meaningless in these cases anyway.

^ Pretty much meaningless.
Malaysian brought over aircraft reg #9M-MNF.
I imagine they brought over 3 crews to fly it around the clock.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/9m-mnf
Airplane CallSign Tail Number Track LookUp | Plane Flight Tracker

There may be more than one Malaysian A380 flying these flights, but I don't see that as likely.

I doubt that MH has that many staff to spare!

Besides, the A380 is only scheduled for 2 rotations per day. That probably requires only a single crew.

Apparently no other MH A380s for Operation Matterhorn, but Hi-Fly's (ex-SQ) A380 has also been working for this task: according to Flightradar24 it has yesterday flow pax from DLM (Dalaman, Turkey for those of us who haven't memorized every airport code yet) to LGW and today brought back load of passangers from NBE (Enfidha, Tunisia). On the other hand these Hi-Fly planes are more usual suspects when there is sudden need for extra airplanes.

But I guess A380 might be quite effective tool for this sort of task, you can easily board more than twice as many pax than on any single aisle aircraft and those tend to be the usual choice for most shorter holiday routes.

This happened on Saturday; it wasn't a repatriation flight. I wonder whether the real problem was that Thomas Cook couldn't afford to fill the fuel tanks enough to carry the luggage too.

Condor has received (pending EC approval) loan guarantees by German federal and Hesse state governments and seeks to separate itself from any fallout from Thomas Cook Group, so they should be fine at least for the time being. Link to press release (in German)

That is good news for those currently traveling and those with near-term upcoming travel. I would nonetheless, not book Condor going forward. If the past few years are any indicator, there is no need of the anxiety, stress, and risk associated with flying a carrier on shaky financial underpinnings.

I'd tend to believe that the plane was at maximum weight and wasn't able to take additional luggage.

They had a 13hr flight from Malaysia so it would have been crewed to a minimum of 4 pilots for that flight.

So far, they've made 3 round trips PMI-MAN in 27hrs. The flight time on each round trip would be possible with two crews for a short period of time but not for very long, as they'd hit weekly and monthly duty limits.

I agree. Even if the risk of losing money is very low, the risk of cancellations and delays is high.

It’s most likely that Condor will be sold soon and nobody knows at this moment, how the buyer will integrate Condor in its structure and fleet.

I view it differently.

It's not just that Condor is profitable on its own, owns decent slots in FRA, and that the EUR 380 m credit takes care of the liquidity issues caused by the parent, TC. But also, Condor is an extremely strong brand.

People outside Germany might not appreciate that. (But DE's image in Germany matters most as the vast majority of its customers are based here.)

Now, I think the likeliest outcome is that DE is taken over by TUI or becomes part of a JV involving TUI. In that case, there will be smooth transition. Likely, the Condor brand will remain. Even if not, nobody will cancel flights as that would damage the reputation. But even in case an LCC like FR or U2 takes over DE, they would be very stupid to deliberately cancel flights or let operations slack in other ways. DE is not considered an LCC by its target audience, it's seen as a solid airline. Even an LCC will not lightly destroy the brand value.

tl;dr The value of DE is not just the value of its slots. It's a strong brand. I consider it highly unlikely DE will be trashed, its customers agonized in the near term.

It's not so much that they are "stranded". For most US ports other than Orlando, customers are being accommodated on other scheduled BA and VS flights; from MCO, replacement aircraft are being provided.

And these passengers were originally scheduled to depart from these various airports and are therefore part of the "normal" crowds expected. It's hard to imagine that there are sufficient customers on vacation in the US now who are not aware of the change in circumstances, and who will flock together in a horde that would lead to the perception of "major crowds" at any airport.

In most cases, it was just one or two flights a day anyway. And none of your airports (DCA, DFW, HNL) was a Thomas Cook destination.

Thomas Cook UK's shorthaul A321-200s had 220 seats. 9M-MNF has 412 Y seats, with an additional 66 J and 8 F seats.

Should the 2 A321 flights being pooled into each A380 flight be completely full, there would be 28 passengers more than available Y seats.

I expect, though, that the Thomas Cook flights from PMI were not running at the 93%+ load factor that would indicate a need to use J seats, particularly as we are not currently in the high season. That said, it's also not clear how open the repatriation effort is to having people "change" their flight and come home early and/or "swap" to different flights and destinations.

I can't imagine, though, that opening up the J cabin would be easily done as that would have implications for the number of cabin crew required.

Just an FYI for anyone interested, I believe FlyBe has arranged an engineering recruitment day for TCX engineers at MAN, details were on their Twitter feed this morning.

+1

There have been stories in German media that TUI was interested in combining their TUIfly operation with Condor. The latter has, I think, a much stronger brand. Just need to paint over the “Part of Thomas Cook” on the back of the aircraft ASAP. :)

I have been on two DE flights recently. SEA-FRA earlier in September and FRA-HER just yesterday. And I may need another round trip to Europe in November. I am seriously considering, given the bridge loan and Condor’s overall situation, to book another DE ticket. The business class fares tend to be a good deal for my needs, and should the situation change and the flight gets cancelled, it wouldn’t be difficult to either get a last minute coach or premium econ ticket on another carrier or even a premium award (my travel schedule is flexible). And the DE fare would be protected by US credit card law.

Falling victim to marketing / brand hype is what gets people into trouble.

Thomas Cook was the oldest travel provider in the UK. Both Pan Am and TWA were storied and Monarch was well thought of too.

The mere fact that Condor requires loan guarantees and is considering selling itself would give a reasonable person pause to book.

Then I would advise you, as a reasonable person, to go and look.

You will find that, unlike its parent and former owner, it is a profitable business. With Thomas Cook's collapse - taking Condor's profit with it - Condor finds itself with the rug pulled from under its feet, and would struggle to survive the lean winter period. Many airlines - particularly those that are highly seasonal, such as holiday charters - make their profit in the high (summer) season.

To condemn Condor to face the winter alone, having had its circumstances so brutally altered just now, through no fault of its own, just as it faces into the tough part of the year, appears quite vindictive. That Condor, like many other airlines, has a seasonal business model is not one that means it is inherently unprofitable. That it should now, with its profit-making season just completed - and those profits ripped away - somehow be expected to survive the lean winter months, unaided, is not something that appears fair.

Should all businesses that seek credit be denied and then pushed to failure?

Note that Thomas Cook was in the same boat last week - but no-one was prepared to stump up the credit there, as it was clear that it would not be enough to get them through the winter.

No point in sending a good airline after a bad one!

I agree.

In fact, it looks as if the entire TC Airlines division is profitable, not just the part Condor. (However, one might argue Condor is the cherry on the cake.)

But yeah, as previous posters have pointed out, TC's problem is its biggest division, package tours. Not the airlines. I'm sure there will be a solution for Condor, perhaps even a solution for the entire TC Airlines group. And there's also a good chance the Condor brand with its high recognition in Germany will live on for some time.

That's a National Geographic line...I can hear the narrator...:p

I don't see what is different to what I've written.

Yes, maybe it's TUI who will buy Condor. Maybe it's Lufthansa. Maybe it's someone else. The most likely buyers at this moment - TUI and LH - are both not in their best shapes - even if they are more healthy than their competitors. In every case there will be changes of Condor due to its integration in a new structure. Changes means problems for a while. And there is still the risk of bankrupty - if the potential buyers prefer to buy parts from Condor instead of buying the whole company.

Based on that I won't book a Condor flight now and in the next months and many other customers won't book a Condor flight for the same reasons.

I agree that it's very likely that a buyer will use the Condor brand. But brands haven't much to do with operations.

And I'm wondering about speculations about Condor's profitability. Condor was part of a large group. In a large group the profitability of a single legal entity doesn't mean a lot. The truth is, that you can not predict the profitability of Condor when it's not part of TC. It is very unlikely, that Condor is viable on its own.

It is a business relationship. The same for Thomas Cook. A pity for many, many people employed directly and indirectly. But, that does not change my self-protection instincts.

I am almost certain that Condor is not viable on its own.

Which is good reason not to tie up personal funds and risk having to spend a fortune later.

Based on my one post-TC-liquidation DE flight the other day (which was fairly full despite not carrying any TC customers), I am almost certain that Condor is viable on its own.

I fully realize that my one data point is not worth much, but it’s more data to back up my claim than you provided for yours, so I win :-)

Ultimately, unless you are an insider at DE with access to internal financial data and the ability to predict the development of the overall economy for the next few years, I think it is very difficult to make “almost certain” predictions.


If the truth is that you can’t predict the profitability of Condor when it’s not part of TC, how can you then conclude that it is very unlikely to be viable on its own?

Because of its size, structure and business model. Maybe you are not aware what it means for a company to be part of a large group. There are pros and cons, but for sure it's a different kind of business. You need much more additional money for a change like that.

Btw: TC wanted to sell Condor before. So it's likely that Condor's books are shining brighter than the reality.

Real shame that Manchester has had it's flights to the States decimated by TC's demise.

TC flew to NYC, Vegas, San Francisco, Orlando, LA, Seattle and Miami from memory.

Virgin offer some options, TUI cover Orlando and there is some minor competition on the NYC route with United offering a daily flight as well as Virgin, but I'm going to take a guess that 50% of capacity has gone overnight along with some of the destinations. Hope someone steps in to offer some options as Virgin's prices have gone through the roof (might be temporary, but they were always more expensive even when TC were flying).

Condor made a €43 million profit for 2018, with expectations for 2019 to beat that.
TC announced a £1.5 billion half-year loss last May. That's why they looked again at selling various assets - but it became clear that offloading the divisions that actually made money was unsustainable and would have hastened the end of the parent.

Cutting them free from the sinking TC corpse would have been the right thing to do; TCUK would have gone under before the summer, so at least hundreds of thousands of Brits managed to get their last TC summer holiday.

This shows several other airlines too:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Airport

AA MAN-PHL
DL MAN-BOS (seasonal)
SG MAN-HOU

AA used to fly to JFK from MAN but they stopped a while back.