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Norwegian Air stability through summer?

Norwegian Air stability through summer?

Old Mar 25, 20, 3:03 pm
  #541  
 
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Originally Posted by iahphx View Post
You can certainly argue that, historically, US airlines have benefited from US bankruptcy law to an extent that, say, European airlines can't benefit. But the world has now changed and the consolidated US airline industry is -- by far -- the healthiest and most profitable in the world. That's just reality. I'm not even sure they "need" government assistance now to avoid bankruptcy: it's currently hard to say given the unpredictable nature of the virus and the unknown date when travellers will return to the sky. After this virus threat passes, it is almost 100% certain that the US airline industry will again be the healthiest in the world.
I don't know a huge amount about it, apart from what I read here and in the press, so no real expert. But I thought American Airlines was apparently teetering on the edge a bit. I always had the impression that the US carriers were forever living close the abyss, but somehow doing a good job of staying back from the edge. Until now.
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Old Mar 25, 20, 3:11 pm
  #542  
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Originally Posted by Concerto View Post
I don't know a huge amount about it, apart from what I read here and in the press, so no real expert. But I thought American Airlines was apparently teetering on the edge a bit. I always had the impression that the US carriers were forever living close the abyss, but somehow doing a good job of staying back from the edge. Until now.
Not sure what you read but, before this crisis, American Airlines was making billions of dollars a year, and had cash reserves of $7.4 billion. There were, however, unhappy shareholders who thought they should be making more. Delta, for example, was making more!
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Old Mar 26, 20, 6:20 am
  #543  
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Those many billions of dollars in profits that the big 3 American airlines made in recent years are apparently not enough for those US airlines to skip demanding yet another massive government bailout for themselves and behaving like economic terrorists using their cabin crew, ground service agents and suppliers as hostages to extract concessions from the government. They will be paid off their demanded ransom money.

And these US airlines and their supporters want to act as if Norwegian being bailed out by Norway is bad/worse ..... despite the the US3 management teams and their shareholders having raked in huge profits in recent years and yet now shaking down the American taxpayers for her another massive bailout for the big US airlines.

Can’t save for a rainy day or even a flash flood after years of plenty and need to do whatever it takes to shakedown the government for yet another massive government bailout? Then the US airlines too were speculating and a speculative venture, and of very questionable moral standing .... maybe a morality best signified by American Airline’s CEO Parker having been rightfully flagged down as a repeat drunk driver and yet remaining at the helm of the airline and a big Whig in the US airline industry.
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Old Mar 26, 20, 6:46 am
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When the only defense for Norwegian’s poor strategy is “but look at the US3,” that doesn’t speak well for Norwegian or their supporters.
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Old Mar 26, 20, 8:00 am
  #545  
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Originally Posted by WindowSeatFlyer View Post
When the only defense for Norwegian’s poor strategy is “but look at the US3,” that doesn’t speak well for Norwegian or their supporters.
It is not a defense of Norwegian and its ways of doing business.

It is a critique of the standards being applied to criticize Norwegian’s being bailed out by Norway, all while not applying the same to American and the other big US airlines which have been on the American bailout merry-ground time and time again in ways that more than dwarf this Norwegian government bailout of Norwegian.
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Old Mar 26, 20, 8:52 am
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Amen, someone said it.

People are so anti-Norwegian in this thread, it's ridiculous.
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Old Mar 26, 20, 9:48 am
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Originally Posted by Cookoovaya View Post
Amen, someone said it.

People are so anti-Norwegian in this thread, it's ridiculous.
People critique businesses that clearly have no idea what they are doing and that have been unviable for a very long time.
Others make excuses for those businesses and think that pointing out the truth is “anti-Norwegian.”
It’s up to you to choose which side to stand on.
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Old Mar 26, 20, 10:31 am
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Originally Posted by WindowSeatFlyer View Post
People critique businesses that clearly have no idea what they are doing and that have been unviable for a very long time.
Others make excuses for those businesses and think that pointing out the truth is “anti-Norwegian.”
It’s up to you to choose which side to stand on.
...says the airline/airport/aviation expert analyst on FlyerTalk that clearly knows everything.
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Old Mar 26, 20, 10:46 am
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Look at their financials. Look at their route network cutbacks long before the covid-19 impact. Look at their foolish decision to try to operate from the US to the Caribbean. Look at their decision to start an airline in Argentina. It doesn’t take an “expert analyst” to see what has been going on for a long time. All you have to do is open your eyes and apply common sense.
If you believe strongly that Norwegian is viable, put your money where your mouth is. Invest all of your savings in Norwegian stock. Surely that has great potential for a large profit, right?

Last edited by WindowSeatFlyer; Mar 26, 20 at 11:10 am
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Old Mar 26, 20, 10:50 am
  #550  
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Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
It is a critique of the standards being applied to criticize Norwegian’s being bailed out by Norway, all while not applying the same to American and the other big US airlines which have been on the American bailout merry-ground time and time again in ways that more than dwarf this Norwegian government bailout of Norwegian.
I believe that those US carriers got the US$50bn they had been demanding - right?

US airlines pushing for massive bailout gave $45bn to shareholders in five years

Little wonder US passengers have to endure the worst service and carriers on the planet - and high prices - when the airlines know they can always get bailed out. There is no incentive to run a US carrier in a sustainable, customer-friendly manner.
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Old Mar 26, 20, 12:22 pm
  #551  
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Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
Those many billions of dollars in profits that the big 3 American airlines made in recent years are apparently not enough for those US airlines to skip demanding yet another massive government bailout for themselves and behaving like economic terrorists using their cabin crew, ground service agents and suppliers as hostages to extract concessions from the government. They will be paid off their demanded ransom money.

And these US airlines and their supporters want to act as if Norwegian being bailed out by Norway is bad/worse ..... despite the the US3 management teams and their shareholders having raked in huge profits in recent years and yet now shaking down the American taxpayers for her another massive bailout for the big US airlines.

Can’t save for a rainy day or even a flash flood after years of plenty and need to do whatever it takes to shakedown the government for yet another massive government bailout? Then the US airlines too were speculating and a speculative venture, and of very questionable moral standing .... maybe a morality best signified by American Airline’s CEO Parker having been rightfully flagged down as a repeat drunk driver and yet remaining at the helm of the airline and a big Whig in the US airline industry.
This is just false. All the major USA airlines have saved for "a rainy day." Indeed, they saved for a Category 5 hurricane leveling all of their hub airports, and destroying all of their airplanes, all at the same time! Since 9/11, they've boosted their cash balances by 5 to 10 times. Like instead of keeping a spare billion in cash on hand, they now keep $8 billion. The problem, of course, is that the current situation may be much worse than this. If you have $45 billion in annual fixed costs, you will run out of money fairly quickly when you have zero revenue.

The "bailout" that has passed the US Senate is mostly a bailout of US airline employees. Personally, I have a problem with this, if what has been said in the media is true. Basically, the US airlines will now get money to fully pay their employees through September. Without this aid, the airlines would simply have laid them off. I'm uncomfortable with airline employees -- especially highly paid pilots, many making in excess of $200,000 a year -- drawing their full salaries courtesy of US taxpayers. There will be many millions of less fortunate service workers in America who will be laid off and receive only a small portion of their former wages in unemployment compensation -- and these workers were generally earning a small fraction of the generous wages earned by the airline employees.

So while the US is taking care of airline employees (largely because their unionized status got them votes from both sides of the political aisle), it remains to be seen how much help the airlines themselves are getting. There are no grants to the airlines; just the promise of loans. We don't even know yet if the major airlines will take these loans -- some analysts have already said that these otherwise highly profitable companies will do better borrowing money in the private sector as needed. You mention Doug Parker. When 9/11 hit, he was the brand new CEO of tiny, unprofitable America West Airlines. No one in the private sector would give him a nickel. After initially being rejected by the Feds, he got a gov't loan with very onerous terms. A couple years later, he paid it back, making the taxpayers $400 million. The US could only be so lucky if Parker wants a Federal loan this time!

Unlike the profitable US airlines, Norwegian is a financial basket case. And this was before the current disaster. There is zero chance of them repaying any government loan. You'd just have to hand them cash: not for their employees, but to keep the business alive on life support. Norwegian is simply not a commercially viable airline -- in good times! That's the reality. It's unfortunate, but that's the reality. They took a dumb business plan, acted irrationally, ran into bad luck, and have now encountered the worst crisis to even hit the airline industry. If somebody wants to give them money to survive, that's fine. But it's also 100% crazy.
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Old Mar 26, 20, 12:27 pm
  #552  
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Spin, spin, spin, with the merry-go-round. The big US airlines have repeatedly been on this American bailout merry-go-round and are back on it again in the context and manner described in my prior post today.
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Old Mar 27, 20, 4:41 pm
  #553  
 
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Originally Posted by 1999driver View Post
As a datapoint for anyone waiting on a refund, I canceled my Premium Flex ticket on March 14th and received the refund to my credit card on March 19th.
On March 14 we received notice from Norwegian that our Premium non-flex CDG-LAX flight on 4/28 was cancelled. We applied for a refund on same day and received an email acknowledgement, but as of today (3/27) no refund.
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Old Mar 27, 20, 5:12 pm
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Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
The US bankruptcy rules have been part of the repeated US bailouts given to the US3 airlines and which have benefited those airlines. Using 9/11 is just an excuse, as the US airlines were a mess before too.
A financial scam then, as somebody once coined it...
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Old Mar 27, 20, 5:41 pm
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Originally Posted by Umbrella View Post
On March 14 we received notice from Norwegian that our Premium non-flex CDG-LAX flight on 4/28 was cancelled. We applied for a refund on same day and received an email acknowledgement, but as of today (3/27) no refund.
norwegian cancelled my LAX-BCN flight mar 14. i requested a refund the same day. hadn't heard anything, called them a few days ago, and they said, 'the refund request is in queue to be reviewed, we expect if approved, you could receive your refund in four to eight weeks.'

great.
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