callum9999

The vast majority of "the market" will be completely unaware of these issues. And i'd personally wager a large proportion of those who do will happily go back once Norwegian gets their act together. These are price sensitive leisure travellers (on the whole) after all. Just look at how Ryanairs reputation is basically dirt yet they are still incredibly popular.

Snacky

RyanAir does not fly long-haul. There's the big difference in my opinion. You will never get 44 hour delays when travelling Ryanair, or any other airline. Norwegian have been mentioned in international media countless times this last year, and they have only been getting negative PR. In the scandinavian countries they have a permanent bad reputation already, and that's where the majority of their market is, and will be for the next few years. And, they might still have a lot of problems with their long-haul fleet, and unions, and US lobbyists, and angry pax on social media etc. in the future.

So, will they get their act together? I'm starting to seriously doubt that. They are not planning to do things any differently ahead from now, as far as I have heard.


Snacky

Calchas

A friend of mine was delayed for 40 hours on FR (allegedly due to weather). Begrudgingly FR paid out his accommodation costs only after he sent them a Letter Before Action.

DY don't need to do any better. If you're selling seats LON-NYC for Ł150 each way, there is an almost unlimited pool of people who will try it and take the risk of problems.

I am not suggesting, of course, that Goldman Sachs is going to changes its travel policy to "DY only". Nor, I hasten to assert for the benefit of my reputation on this forum, are you likely to see me dead on DY metal. But underestimating the purchasing power of the budget conscious, quality unconscious traveller has been the fell of many airlines.

For years and years FR based its entire marketing policy on being the worst quality carrier in the market, on the basis that being bad quality must mean they are cheap. It absolutely worked.

oliver2002

My BIL, who grew up with FR, nowadays books DY out of principle for all his travel. I can very well imagine them booking DY longhaul when its an alternative.

JDiver

And now, Norwegian announces 787 service LGW-LAX. Link to BBC article.

callum9999

They've been mentioned in minor stories that the majority of people with little interest in this topic will never see.

Of course they will, they have no choice. They either need to close down the long haul airline or make it work properly. You can get away with teething problems for a while, but you can't run an airline with them in perpetuity.

Snacky

My point exactly. They've been "trying hard" for a year already now. And, I think people have a bit higher expectations for a long-haul flight than a short hop. They are also NOT trying to be "long-haul RyanAir", which means something for what people expect of them.


Snacky

BTW: They are also planning to fly to Hong Kong and India from 2016.

CPH-Flyer

The comments from Easyjet in the article are interesting. They are not interested in long haul, as they do not want to change their short haul business from the current model. I guess they are thinking about feed and responsibility for connections.

Calchas

I respectfully disagree with the thrust of your argument, if not the exact statements in it. If DY can sell seats at their current prices for profit, people will buy them, complain bitterly about the discomfort and/or poor service, and then buy them again. There are plenty of people who will see the headline price on the price comparison website and that's the decision made.

The real question is, can DY really make a profit at these pricing levels?

For a market like LON-NYC or LON-LAX, there's plenty of traffic there, no need for feed.

I think U2 and FR's lack of interest is more a statement of their current business position than of the fundamental profitability of low cost longhaul.

Snacky

To better specify my statements so far, maybe the scenario you describe here is possible in markets other than in the Scandinavian area, but here their chances of success are running out as we speak. Most scandinavians will not tolerate this behavior from DY any longer. The relatively stronger buying power and higher expectations of people in Scandinavia, combined with the fact that available seats on network carriers from Scandinavia to DY's typical destinations are growing more abundant, and getting increasingly inexpensive, are already severely jeopardizing their chances at being able to steadily run a profitable operation, within this market at least. They cannot sell every seat for the lowest price either, if they want to be profitable.


Snacky

Quark999

Good morning from sunny LAX - as I finally have something of substance to contribute, I thought I would quickly write up a trip report for yesterday's inaugural LGW-LAX flight on DY7095. Excuse brevity and lack of pictures - I am writing this because I can't sleep from a darkened hotel room

I had booked the flights on the first day they became available, on the assumption that a) they wouldn't last long, b) that despite all the reported problems, they would make damn sure that their first flight is on a Dreamliner and leaves on time for PR and c) I would manage to get an exit row booking this early, which would negate the legroom issue.

As to why: All in (with seat + food + luggage bundle), we paid Ł440.90 return per person. For an exit row on a brand new Dreamliner, that did seem worth the risk.

I indeed managed to get the exit row we wanted - they were available for a few hours after booking, but quickly went. I kept an eye on the flights and the seats filled up. I also kept checking the temptingly called "Upgrade to Premium" button, but it kept yielding disappointing results. Essentially, it kept offering the price difference between what we had paid and their standard premium price, which didn't fluctuate at all in the months leading up to the flight. At a ridiculous 700-800 quid per person/direction, we decided we'd rather fly on with a proper airline for that level of investment.

We arrived at LGW three hours early (the accident on the M25 had thankfully cleared just in time for us) and proceeded to the checkin desks for Norwegian. It was my first encounter with self-tagging, and the kiosks dutifully asked us for all the US-related questions. Unfortunately, the scanners threw up some random error message and we were directed to the manned customer service desk, because apparently US flights didn't really work with the system (yet?). Thankfully, the queue at this desk was very short and after a very quick scan the bags were off. On the way to security, we came past some ladies in "Fly cheaply to the US" T-Shirts that tried to persuade another lady to join the massive queue at the other end "because self-checkin doesn't work to the US", but we decided to chance it - after all, our ESTA information had been submitted and the kiosk had asked the right questions. All was fine in the end, so half an hour saved and a sign that there were still some "training" issues.

From the windows, Gatwick was awash with Norwegian Dreamliners - I can't help but wonder whether the odd LGW-Stockholm flights on 787s at the moment are not only proving flights, but also technical backup in case a 787 goes poof at LGW.

The stores had a few people in American hats and there was a really tacky display of cheerleaders in the main area to advertise the new flights. We made a beeline for the No 1 lounge - horrible place. After all the good things I had heard, the food took ages to arrive and was cold (and just a measly half a pita bread), everything was dirty and cramped and the space tiny. Even the lift was rickety. If it hadn't been free, I would have been mightily annoyed.

Our gate was announced early, with a beautiful Dreamliner visible through the windows. There were lots of excited looking Manager types around, as well as cake and champagne (and Coke bottles, cute). The crew came out and a few pictures were taken. All in all a bit odd, because no one bothered explaining to anyone that it was the inaugural flight - sometimes, airlines get caught up in their own excitement. We stayed away as far as possible from the shenanigans, and were given two pins to commemorate the occasion - why I would care as a customer I can't quite fathom, but at least they tried to do *something*.

Boarding was on time and a very civilised affair, with seat row numbers actively being enforced - something I hadn't seen in a while. We took up residence in 7H and 7J and it became clear that out of the exit row seats those were the worst choice because they were still quite close to the bulkhead, still nice enough though. Being both quite "bulky", we had been worried about being able to fit width-wise on the 3-3-3 configuration, and while the seatbelts were massively long (yay!), it was definitely a squeeze. We ended up in little arm rest fights with our seat neighbour (who was lovely, there just wasn't room for two arms though), and in the end I swapped into the middle seat with my girlfriend - because I am taller, at the window seat the curvature of the plane meant I couldn't even sit entirely upright, and I couldn't face being slumped slightly to the left for 10 1/2 hours.

All in all, it was doable - just. We staggered the seat backs as much as we could (one reclined, one not), but still didn't have any "shoulder air", so if you'd be traveling with a business colleague and not your girlfriend, I think you'd be too cozy and/or in muscle pain after this. Also, the exit rows were definitely good enough, but the rest of the plane looked in pain, and I saw plenty of knees right against seat backs. Coupled with under seat boxes at the window seats, personally I think a line has been crossed in comfort - I would NOT want to travel in economy if I couldn't have an exit row. That is not to say it is unbearable though - most people didn't seem to expect anything else.

Other than the seating, the flight was really good - we left on time and were sent off with a wash down by the fire crew, which was a nice experience. We had an awesome view of the fjords in Greenland through the nice, big tinted windows - looked like through sunglasses The air on board was noticeably better, but still no revolution, and we still felt like wrecks at the other end. I also didn't think it was significantly quieter (certainly not like the A380), but then again we sat right by the engine.

Food was a slightly desperate affair, and came with some unidentifiable stick of Quinoa or something, but the chicken actually was quite spicy, the chocolate mousse was quite good and it certainly hit the spot. Before landing, a little lunch box was handed out (again, only to the preorders of course, which seemed to be pretty much everyone), with two cheese and coleslaw sandwich fingers that were really good but sadly too small, an apple juice box and a muffin. All in all, probably the worst economy food I have had, but still edible and satisfying enough. Drinks were slightly disappointing, one tiny plastic cup from a Pepsi bottle and then a tea/coffee round. We had stocked up on 1.5l of Buxton's, and were glad we did.

The crew was awesome, probably one of the best I have ever had. Most of them were actually based out of New York and quite chatty, and they all seemed quite happy. Wonder whether it will last. They kept delivering the Snack Bar orders throughout the flight and were more visible than most other flight crews I've seen (other than maybe Asian flights), and they were really helpful in rebooting my girlfriend's IFE when Android played up - really good choice of movies and music, and so-so TV shows. Nice Google Earth based in-flight map, but still worse than anything you'd find on a smartphone.

The other passengers were also really nice - everyone was in a holiday mood, but not the rowdy stag parties I had been afraid of at all. No crying children, and overall it seemed to be either groups of 20-something's, or retired couples. Obviously also a result of not being full term yet.

Overall, would we fly again? With a guaranteed exit row in a heartbeat, but the potential problems and the spectre of a middle economy seat loom large. The proof will be in the return flight, which will be two and a half weeks after the media looked elsewhere - and I really don't fancy 40 hours at the Comfort Inn LAX...

HelloKittysMum

Thanks for posting this. We are flying to New York on Thursday (school breaks up tomorrow). I fly extensively for work on Emirates so I'm expecting it to be a different standard that I'm used to but we are all short, we've saved £300 each and New York is only 7 hours. We'll take some snacks just in case food is grotty (but it can't be as a bad as Virgin to Miami three years ago).

callum9999

Well I think you wildly misunderstand the budget market.

I never said they were trying to be like Ryanair, they blatantly aren't (I always choose Norwegian over Ryanair if the prices are comparable)... While people actually experiencing the delays wouldn't be happy, the vast majority of people who would take these flights are not like you or I and wouldn't have the faintest idea what level of issues Norwegian has been having.

Snacky

Well, let's see what happens onwards shall we?

I know you didn't say that (I mistakenly commented on something from someone elses post in my answer to you). Also, read post #338 (if you haven't already), wherein I specify my views on the matter further.

Finally, I think you might be underestimating peoples knowledge levels, and I especially think you underestimate the power of social media (which will be even more powerful in the future).


Snacky

callum9999

I highly doubt I'm underestimating knowledge levels. Moist people just aren't interested in this stuff. Most passengers on BA for example don't even bother to collect airmiles - despite a return to New York providing an almost free flight to Europe. Flyertalk isn't remotely representative of the general public - I think the vast amounts of knowledge on this site has clouded your judgement over what the average person would know. Most people I know didn't even know Norwegian existed when I mentioned I was flying them. And a few who did know them were surprised they flew anywhere other than Norway! These are the types of people who are going to use such a service (load up skyscanner and go for the cheapest option).

As to post 338, I don't live in Scandinavia so have no reason to dispute that. However, although for obvious reasons Scandinavia is their core market at the moment, they are rapidly expanding to become a pan-European airline like Ryanair or Easy jet. Even if their Scandinavian market is decimated (which I don't believe will happen anyway), they still have the rest of Europe.