China Southern leaves SkyTeam, planning to join oneworld
Dec 25, 2019, 12:31 pm
#46
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Sure they can be alliance partners yet remain enemies, but this certainly doesn't make a case for OW membership from either airlines' standpoint.
Are you kidding? CX would lose its "gateway to China" position within OW if it allowed a Chinese carrier to join. A lot of OW partner airline fliers have gone out of their way in order to fly CX to reach cities like CTU, but a Chinese carrier would provide additional --often cheaper-- options at more sensible connection points.
Plus, 'getaway to China' only serves less than 20 Chinese markets, where there are over 200 commercial airports in China. Getaway to China was never CX's mojo but an excuse of failed attempt to recruit any China based members. It is coming back to bite CX.
Their domestic network, especially post PKX ramp-up, is their strongest carrot
I'm having a difficult time imagining scenarios in which droves of CZ customers who ply routes like URC-WUH would care at all about CX. Furthermore
Right, this is why the AA-CZ, BA-CZ, and QF-CZ partnerships exist. Whether or not CX likes these, they have zero power to block them.
The routes listed are meaningless wrt CZ's threat to CX. The key issue is giving OW pax an alternative to CX in Greater China.
While it's true that CZ is based in Guangzhou, they are betting their future on Beijing. I don't think the Cantonese speaking issue causes their execs to lose much sleep.
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The bottom line is that CX would/will only permit CZ to join OW if the upsides (none that I can think of) outweigh the downsides (many).
Dec 25, 2019, 12:45 pm
#47
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That's really interesting and I had no idea that by law they can't speak Cantonese. Is the law really enforced though? What if someone from HK asked in Cantonese and the FA can understand and respond in Cantonese out of courtesy? Seems a bit weird to have the FA punished for that. It's not really a problem for me as I have can communicate in both, but your comment got my attention. As for English, yea, I totally agree with you, but it's not unique to CZ. All of the Mainland carriers don't have FAs that can speak decent English. I say that in general terms as there are exceptions.
Is it enforced? I remember 4 years ago I went to an area where local dialect is rife (i.e. people do not speak Pu Tong Hua as natural choice), I needed something done in China Mobile. The agent had to speak in Pu Tong Hua although the patrons spoke local dialect. It was funny to watch. My local friend told me that the agent would loose her bonus if she failed to speak Pu Tong Hua all the time. It is a different matter if you work on your own or there is no rule in the company that Pu Tong Hua is the only way. So I don't think it is enforced. But if the company you work for is a public facing nature (i.e.Media, Utility, Transport, Telecom...etc.) and is a major SOE, you would expect the company is forcing it through company policies. And in public schools, you do not have a choice.
Dec 25, 2019, 12:59 pm
#48
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CX has no choice if CZ decide to join oneworld. CX made a promise to recruit a mainland Chinese member 10 years ago (actually almost 12 years ago) and it did not happen. CX needs to hornor its promise to other oneworld members and it is not up to CX to decide who to be the next mainland Chinese member now. CX officially ceded veto power on this issue due to its promise. Let me give you another hint, the current AA Asia manager, who oversees AA operation and cooperation with JAL and China Southern is a former CX manager.
-their (broken) promise to recruit a Mainland carrier does not strip them of this power
-if CZ was interested in joining OW, they could presumably apply pressure; the fact that they have not not done so suggests that they are happy with the AA and BA partnerships for now
-CX does NOT want a Mainland carrier to join OW. It doesn't matter who the front line people are; as long as the business case doesn't pencil, they will make sure that it doesn't happen.
Last edited by moondog; Dec 25, 2019 at 1:04 pm
Dec 25, 2019, 1:19 pm
#49
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Since this thread is becoming cluttered with noise, I want state my point in a concise manner:
1. CX will not permit a Mainland carrier to join OW, unless it makes sense for CX
2. CZ wants to remain independent
We can debate the undercurrents until the cows come home, but they really don't matter.
1. CX will not permit a Mainland carrier to join OW, unless it makes sense for CX
2. CZ wants to remain independent
We can debate the undercurrents until the cows come home, but they really don't matter.
Dec 25, 2019, 3:04 pm
#50
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-as a founding member of OW, CX has the power to veto applicants, and this is common knowledge
-their (broken) promise to recruit a Mainland carrier does not strip them of this power
-if CZ was interested in joining OW, they could presumably apply pressure; the fact that they have not not done so suggests that they are happy with the AA and BA partnerships for now
-CX does NOT want a Mainland carrier to join OW. It doesn't matter who the front line people are; as long as the business case doesn't pencil, they will make sure that it doesn't happen.
-their (broken) promise to recruit a Mainland carrier does not strip them of this power
-if CZ was interested in joining OW, they could presumably apply pressure; the fact that they have not not done so suggests that they are happy with the AA and BA partnerships for now
-CX does NOT want a Mainland carrier to join OW. It doesn't matter who the front line people are; as long as the business case doesn't pencil, they will make sure that it doesn't happen.
Which part of CX will not VETO CZ's oneworld membership do you not understand?
As I said before, CX made a promise to oneworld 12 years ago to recruit a mainland Chinese member. But this promise lapsed and CX publicly admit defeat and stated that it would not veto any mainland carrier recruited by AA or BA.
Your 'common knowledge' is true that CX can veto, but my problem is that CX have publicly said it will let AA and BA takes charge in recruiting a mainland Chinese carrier and would not veto whatever the alliance decide.
Plus, as I have illustrated before to you in another thread, CX had no problem about a mainland Chinese carrier, it tried to recruit China Eastern before 2007, then tried Air China soon after, also tried to talk to Shenzhen Airlines as the last resource. CX's only objection was for Hainan Airlines to join oneworld. It had not publicly state its objection on CZ yet.
There is no noise in this thread, but only you are making the noise. I am trying my best to inform you what I know but you are ignoring the most important part and some of the insider knowledge. You can not speak as a management from CX that CX does not want a mainland carrier in oneworld. It is not true and it has never been true.
And before I finish, I can tell you that China Southern had not submitted its application to join oneworld yet, due to other reasons (including its own management issues), CX is not the issue. And I tell you again, CX is not the issue. You have never worked inside CX boardroom, you do not know the process and thinking behind it. And I can tell you many times as you can listen, that CX has no issue with a mainland carrier in oneworld as long as it is not HU.
Dec 25, 2019, 3:46 pm
#51
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Which part of CX will not VETO CZ's oneworld membership do you not understand?
As I said before, CX made a promise to oneworld 12 years ago to recruit a mainland Chinese member. But this promise lapsed and CX publicly admit defeat and stated that it would not veto any mainland carrier recruited by AA or BA.
Your 'common knowledge' is true that CX can veto, but my problem is that CX have publicly said it will let AA and BA takes charge in recruiting a mainland Chinese carrier and would not veto whatever the alliance decide.
Plus, as I have illustrated before to you in another thread, CX had no problem about a mainland Chinese carrier, it tried to recruit China Eastern before 2007, then tried Air China soon after, also tried to talk to Shenzhen Airlines as the last resource. CX's only objection was for Hainan Airlines to join oneworld. It had not publicly state its objection on CZ yet.
There is no noise in this thread, but only you are making the noise. I am trying my best to inform you what I know but you are ignoring the most important part and some of the insider knowledge. You can not speak as a management from CX that CX does not want a mainland carrier in oneworld. It is not true and it has never been true.
And before I finish, I can tell you that China Southern had not submitted its application to join oneworld yet, due to other reasons (including its own management issues), CX is not the issue. And I tell you again, CX is not the issue. You have never worked inside CX boardroom, you do not know the process and thinking behind it. And I can tell you many times as you can listen, that CX has no issue with a mainland carrier in oneworld as long as it is not HU.
As I said before, CX made a promise to oneworld 12 years ago to recruit a mainland Chinese member. But this promise lapsed and CX publicly admit defeat and stated that it would not veto any mainland carrier recruited by AA or BA.
Your 'common knowledge' is true that CX can veto, but my problem is that CX have publicly said it will let AA and BA takes charge in recruiting a mainland Chinese carrier and would not veto whatever the alliance decide.
Plus, as I have illustrated before to you in another thread, CX had no problem about a mainland Chinese carrier, it tried to recruit China Eastern before 2007, then tried Air China soon after, also tried to talk to Shenzhen Airlines as the last resource. CX's only objection was for Hainan Airlines to join oneworld. It had not publicly state its objection on CZ yet.
There is no noise in this thread, but only you are making the noise. I am trying my best to inform you what I know but you are ignoring the most important part and some of the insider knowledge. You can not speak as a management from CX that CX does not want a mainland carrier in oneworld. It is not true and it has never been true.
And before I finish, I can tell you that China Southern had not submitted its application to join oneworld yet, due to other reasons (including its own management issues), CX is not the issue. And I tell you again, CX is not the issue. You have never worked inside CX boardroom, you do not know the process and thinking behind it. And I can tell you many times as you can listen, that CX has no issue with a mainland carrier in oneworld as long as it is not HU.
Dec 25, 2019, 8:24 pm
#52
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Which part of CX will not VETO CZ's oneworld membership do you not understand?
As I said before, CX made a promise to oneworld 12 years ago to recruit a mainland Chinese member. But this promise lapsed and CX publicly admit defeat and stated that it would not veto any mainland carrier recruited by AA or BA.
Your 'common knowledge' is true that CX can veto, but my problem is that CX have publicly said it will let AA and BA takes charge in recruiting a mainland Chinese carrier and would not veto whatever the alliance decide.
Plus, as I have illustrated before to you in another thread, CX had no problem about a mainland Chinese carrier, it tried to recruit China Eastern before 2007, then tried Air China soon after, also tried to talk to Shenzhen Airlines as the last resource. CX's only objection was for Hainan Airlines to join oneworld. It had not publicly state its objection on CZ yet.
There is no noise in this thread, but only you are making the noise. I am trying my best to inform you what I know but you are ignoring the most important part and some of the insider knowledge. You can not speak as a management from CX that CX does not want a mainland carrier in oneworld. It is not true and it has never been true.
And before I finish, I can tell you that China Southern had not submitted its application to join oneworld yet, due to other reasons (including its own management issues), CX is not the issue. And I tell you again, CX is not the issue. You have never worked inside CX boardroom, you do not know the process and thinking behind it. And I can tell you many times as you can listen, that CX has no issue with a mainland carrier in oneworld as long as it is not HU.
As I said before, CX made a promise to oneworld 12 years ago to recruit a mainland Chinese member. But this promise lapsed and CX publicly admit defeat and stated that it would not veto any mainland carrier recruited by AA or BA.
Your 'common knowledge' is true that CX can veto, but my problem is that CX have publicly said it will let AA and BA takes charge in recruiting a mainland Chinese carrier and would not veto whatever the alliance decide.
Plus, as I have illustrated before to you in another thread, CX had no problem about a mainland Chinese carrier, it tried to recruit China Eastern before 2007, then tried Air China soon after, also tried to talk to Shenzhen Airlines as the last resource. CX's only objection was for Hainan Airlines to join oneworld. It had not publicly state its objection on CZ yet.
There is no noise in this thread, but only you are making the noise. I am trying my best to inform you what I know but you are ignoring the most important part and some of the insider knowledge. You can not speak as a management from CX that CX does not want a mainland carrier in oneworld. It is not true and it has never been true.
And before I finish, I can tell you that China Southern had not submitted its application to join oneworld yet, due to other reasons (including its own management issues), CX is not the issue. And I tell you again, CX is not the issue. You have never worked inside CX boardroom, you do not know the process and thinking behind it. And I can tell you many times as you can listen, that CX has no issue with a mainland carrier in oneworld as long as it is not HU.
If you do, please state what kind of sources you are using.
Dec 25, 2019, 8:28 pm
#53
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Dec 30, 2019, 1:17 am
#54
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Omg soo complex. But does that mean the domestic lounges are no longer available for CI (Emerald and Paragon) members flying domestically only?
I think I do understand that CZ flights do not need a CI codeshare to still be able to get all other benefits.
To be honest this is far better than I expected. Though quite surprised that China Eastern did not continue to co operate with CZ.
I think I do understand that CZ flights do not need a CI codeshare to still be able to get all other benefits.
To be honest this is far better than I expected. Though quite surprised that China Eastern did not continue to co operate with CZ.
Dec 30, 2019, 7:20 pm
#55
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Omg soo complex. But does that mean the domestic lounges are no longer available for CI (Emerald and Paragon) members flying domestically only?
I think I do understand that CZ flights do not need a CI codeshare to still be able to get all other benefits.
To be honest this is far better than I expected. Though quite surprised that China Eastern did not continue to co operate with CZ.
I think I do understand that CZ flights do not need a CI codeshare to still be able to get all other benefits.
To be honest this is far better than I expected. Though quite surprised that China Eastern did not continue to co operate with CZ.
Announcement-2019-China Southern Airlines Co. Ltd csair.com
That would suggest that the current arrangement is still in place, including lounge and miles-earning benefits.
A major reason for CZ leaving ST is that China Eastern was getting more important in the alliance through JV and shareholding. MU is a major Chinese rival. No surprise that it is excluded from the new arrangement.
Also note that Garuda is excluded too. GA flies to six Chinese cities and competes with CZ for leisure travel to Bali and Indonesia.
Jan 10, 2020, 1:44 pm
#56
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 83
CZ announced that benefits will continue with existing ST members:
Announcement-2019-China Southern Airlines Co. Ltd csair.com
That would suggest that the current arrangement is still in place, including lounge and miles-earning benefits.
A major reason for CZ leaving ST is that China Eastern was getting more important in the alliance through JV and shareholding. MU is a major Chinese rival. No surprise that it is excluded from the new arrangement.
Also note that Garuda is excluded too. GA flies to six Chinese cities and competes with CZ for leisure travel to Bali and Indonesia.
Announcement-2019-China Southern Airlines Co. Ltd csair.com
That would suggest that the current arrangement is still in place, including lounge and miles-earning benefits.
A major reason for CZ leaving ST is that China Eastern was getting more important in the alliance through JV and shareholding. MU is a major Chinese rival. No surprise that it is excluded from the new arrangement.
Also note that Garuda is excluded too. GA flies to six Chinese cities and competes with CZ for leisure travel to Bali and Indonesia.
To be honest, I struggled with ALL my flights in 2019 to get the Sky Pearl benefits on Sky Team airlines. NOT A SINGLE FLIGHT WENT SMOOTHLY. I always had to explain the situation to the staff for priority boarding and extra luggage allowance. I may post a 2019 report as it was pretty interesting to renew my Sky Pearl membership.
I can't wait to see how it's going to be this year. I have a flight tomorrow on Air France. As per the announcement, I am entitled to an extra free baggage allowance, right? Let's see how it goes.
Edit: there is a new tab "Partner Airlines’ Benefit" on the Elite Benefits page, it might be easier than I thought:
https://skypearl.csair.com/en/about/youxiang.html
Jan 13, 2020, 7:58 am
#57
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 83
Thanks for sharing the link.
To be honest, I struggled with ALL my flights in 2019 to get the Sky Pearl benefits on Sky Team airlines. NOT A SINGLE FLIGHT WENT SMOOTHLY. I always had to explain the situation to the staff for priority boarding and extra luggage allowance. I may post a 2019 report as it was pretty interesting to renew my Sky Pearl membership.
I can't wait to see how it's going to be this year. I have a flight tomorrow on Air France. As per the announcement, I am entitled to an extra free baggage allowance, right? Let's see how it goes.
Edit: there is a new tab "Partner Airlines’ Benefit" on the Elite Benefits page, it might be easier than I thought:
https://skypearl.csair.com/en/about/youxiang.html
To be honest, I struggled with ALL my flights in 2019 to get the Sky Pearl benefits on Sky Team airlines. NOT A SINGLE FLIGHT WENT SMOOTHLY. I always had to explain the situation to the staff for priority boarding and extra luggage allowance. I may post a 2019 report as it was pretty interesting to renew my Sky Pearl membership.
I can't wait to see how it's going to be this year. I have a flight tomorrow on Air France. As per the announcement, I am entitled to an extra free baggage allowance, right? Let's see how it goes.
Edit: there is a new tab "Partner Airlines’ Benefit" on the Elite Benefits page, it might be easier than I thought:
https://skypearl.csair.com/en/about/youxiang.html
- I have been asked to pay for checking-in my bag
- When I went to the priority boarding lane, I had to explain the situation... they should call it "shame priorty boarding" benefit.
https://www.csair.com/en/tourguide/t...ccommodations/
It is always funny to browse their website as I never ever get a single communication but see some changes from times to times.
Jan 13, 2020, 9:38 am
#58
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The cheap tickets are (obviously) cheap, and hotels are also cheap. The bureaucracy the voucher entails --and dealing with passengers-- costs them more money than the hotels themselves. If you fly business class, they will hook you up because the hotel cost is minimal for them, but it's defies logic to offer free hotels on bargain basement fares.
Jan 13, 2020, 11:10 am
#59
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 83
The cheap tickets are (obviously) cheap, and hotels are also cheap. The bureaucracy the voucher entails --and dealing with passengers-- costs them more money than the hotels themselves. If you fly business class, they will hook you up because the hotel cost is minimal for them, but it's defies logic to offer free hotels on bargain basement fares.
On the other hand, I keep reading on the Internet "China Southern is okay and if you have a long layover, they give you free hotel". That was also a good marketing move to get more visibility/customers especially from the European/US side of the world. If they were smart enough, they should have offered customers to pay little extra to get a room while booking the tickets. I am sure that's going to create a lot of fights at the gate 51 in the next months.
Anyway, in most fares, the gap is pretty huge between the cheap tickets/regular ones. I'll prefer to get a cheap 200 rmb night around the airport on my own rather than spending more cash on the flight tickets.
In terms of communication, they are pretty bad though. There are many changes happening and I didn't receive a single email. I have them on my wechat but still struggling to understand everything.
Jan 13, 2020, 3:02 pm
#60
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