GUWonder

Speaking of breaches and floods, DL seems to be announcing the US version of "après moi, le déluge".

nsx

What's the over/under on matching moves by the other legacy carriers? I give it 2.5 weeks for all but one of them to match.

ctownflyer

It was already breached 2 weeks ago by US:http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix....500&highlight=

Its a slippery slope from here...

Jaimito Cartero

I scanned the link, but don't see anything about fuel surcharges. I see ticketing fees, but no fuel surcharge.

ctownflyer

Is there a difference between charging a $25/$50 award processing fee or a $25/$50 award YQ fee?

GUWonder

Not necessarily in the amount, but in terms of impact there are some differences that actually do hit those who are not currently or always subject to the award processing fee.

Could some also be hit by both fees and more? That would start adding up to even more of a difference than is already the case.

ctownflyer

You can't get hit by both of those fees-the $25/$50 "award processing fee" is on US, whereas the $25/$50 YQ fee is on DL.

Any expedite fee on the other hand would be additional on either airline.

GUWonder

Effective August 15, on DL, oh yes you can get hit by "both of those fees" that I mentioned (and then some) -- it's just that DL (for now) calls it the "Partner Airline Handling Charge" for what is (now) $25 and also the fuel surcharge (starting at $25-$50 ... for now).

Also, DL even has an "International Originating Surcharge" that varies tremendously and even rises into the three digit dollar range by itself.

cfischer

this is starting be be insane $430 'taxes' for a o/w

Departing flightWednesday, November 5, 200812:50 PM | London, Heathrow (LHR) - United Kingdom 3:00 PM | Paris, Charles de Gaulle (CDG) - France AF1281 (A 321)Class:
Tempo Flight duration:
01h10m 3:55 PM | Paris, Charles de Gaulle (CDG) - France 6:30 PM | Los Angeles, Los Angeles Intl (LAX) CA - Usa AF064 (777200)Class:
Tempo Flight duration:
11h35m
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Passenger :
1 Adult

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Payment details
Award tickets are subject to airport and security taxes as well as any surcharges.

Number of Miles required
Account number XXXXXXXXXX
Your Miles balance XXX XXX Miles
Total 25 000 Miles
Taxes and surcharges required
Surcharges Taxes Passenger(s) Subtotal
0 431,61 1 Adult 431,61
Total 431,61 USD

Klm is Dead - Long Live KLM

No this has already been insane for a while.

FFPs will soon only good for getting elite benefits on that economy ticket volume you don't pay yourself. (which is stupid for the airlines since much of that corp volume is more swayed by contracts in the first place)

Of course, the question is: exactly what elite benefits will actually be left and will they be worth any of us modifying our behaviour to obtain? Award miles will only be good for booking discounted premium seats or upgrades sporadically.

But, today for anyone who is paying extra for their own travel in order to earn 100% miles on a Euro FFP, the actual discount even on an Business class award ticket is not much to write home about compared to normal disc. business fares.

What happens when we all stop participating in their programs?

szg

It´s really insane, what is now going on. And it´s the typical practice on the *A carrier. For a flight MUC-VIE-NRT-VIE-MUC you pay about 550 USD on taxes and fuel surcharges.

Guava

According to ITA, CO's calculations of taxes & fees is correct. There are no CO imposed fuel surcharge on this itineary therefore it is impossible that AF is actually collecting any fuel surcharges on behalf of CO.

In this case, you have made a strong point.

With respect to BD, which I know you have also complained about, I found that most of their taxes & fees calculations closely track those estimated by ITA. Since most FTers actually don't redeem BD miles to fly BD, but rather partner *A carriers, the calculations can be somewhat inaccurate but they are often within a reasoanble range of the ITA estimate. The question then becomes why does BD collects fuel surcharges on behalf of partner carriers on award tickets? Is is necessary? At least, it's hard to argue BD is using this to make money since customers are actually paying the taxes & fuel surcharges as they would on a paid ticket.

Guava

I am not too sure what's going on with AF either. Just a few months ago, I flew LAX-CDG-ATH on AF F and C respectively (in award) and the total taxes & fees were about $100 USD. However, that was paid last year since I had to book early as there were only 4 F seats per flight, therefore, awards were even more scarce.

This routing seems quite similar to mine, except it was LHR departure and flying out of Europe.

More evidences need to be gathered still but I am concerned by some of the examples presented here and my hunch is if enough evidences can be gathered, there may be enough for a legal case specifically with respect to Air France and I am strictly talking about AF only, not the other airlines mentioned in this thread.

At first glance, it seems some of the claims/complaints against these outrageous fuel surcharges are founded, others, probably not... Note, I am not questioning airlines' right to impose YQ unless it's regulated (e.g. CX of Hong Kong) or against the laws. Therefore, I don't have a problem with BD collecting fuel surcharges for respective partner airlines on awards and I have personally done some tests which show that airlines that charge little YQ will indeed result in BD lowering its total quote of taxes & fees and closely track that of ITA as it would on a paid ticket of same class on the exact same dates. However, when "taxes & fees" on an award ticket disporportionally represent 60~70% or more of a comparable economy class paid ticket and where this proportion is drastically different to what the fare breakdown of a paid ticket price should be then, there can be a case where indeed the said airline is abusing consumers and are making money off award tickets that are supposed to be "free". In other words, if a USA-Europe RT economy class ticket costs $600 where $400 is fare and $200 is taxes yet the award ticket is 50K miles + $500 in taxes, the airline better has a very logical explanation for this obvious discrepancy. I don't have a standing on this issue since I don't believe I have been a victim of such doubtful practice yet but I think if there is enough evidences, someone needs to give the offending airline a ultimatum or else, such bad behavior risks to spread as a way for some unethical airlines to make money in a fraudulent way. It is fraud, when you think about it, to claim to collect taxes or fees on behalf of the governments, its agencies or a service partners when it really isn't. I am not an expert on EU laws, but if my common sense about EU is accurate, this most certainly break no less than half of a dozen consumer protection laws in the EU. This can be pretty serious. The question is, how do you prove it?

Guava

Airlines have the right to charge YQ however they want unless it's regulated. That part should not be a point of dispute. You can always choose not to fly that airline if you find the charges excessive. For some airlines like TG, their relatively weaker overall products combined with a higher than average YQ will undoubtedly eat into their overall demand sometimes down the road, thereby, reducing their load factor should the consumers perceive their products as overpriced or too expensive.

I like ANA very much and thought their premium products are outstanding so I fly them on paid First/Business class. However, when I redeem awards to Asia, for example recently, I gifted a ticket to my sister who recently finshed her PhD and is just entering the workforce - I purposely booked the award ticket on OZ F, which has a much, much lower YQ and until recently, virtually zero YQ. When I fly paid ANA tickets, I usually can't be bothered by the YQ because when you are flying on a full-fare First/Business ticket, you can usually get a major US airline, like in this case within *A, UA, to ticket the whole itineary. Since UA refuses to collect fuel surcharges on behalf of partners (except LH), that's how I navigate through these currents of outrageous YQ. Domestically within the U.S. and North America, there is no YQ on 99% of the flights, hence the outrageous YQ doesn't bother me that much.

I understand you are frustrated with the YQ on redemptions but perhaps redeeming awards on NH when flying on award is not such a good idea after all even in First/Business class. Trust me, I love NH, like SQ, those airlines treat premium pax who give them repeat business like VIP even if those customers don't participate in their FFPs (they somehow track your business separately and I am aware of a BD Gold flyer who is being given a private NH VIP tier, above the published NH Diamond tier because he flies so much with NH). I personally think you just need to adapt in this tough time and be smart and flexible about it. You know if I am going to fly to Europe on leisure (i.e. on my own dime), I will probably buy a cheap economy class ticket and upgrade with traded SWUs, my overall cost of the trip should still be less than $1,000 and I am earning miles yet avoiding those outrageous YQ on awards from most of the European airlines. Or someone else posted above a very helpful page on which airlines don't charge YQ on awards - fly those airlines instead on awards. Sure, that would exclude the NH and SQ in the world but then it becomes a personal decision - do you want to pay the premium? Some of those airlines can afford to be forceful because their products do command such premium. It's up to you to decide whether you are willing to pay for it or not. For me, I think OZ F, while not as well known as the NH or SQ, it is still considered a 5 stars carrier by Skytrax and by most accounts here, an outstanding product. Sure, my sister is going to miss the caviar service that she would otherwise have on NH F but perhaps the caviar is not worth $600 more in cash.

Like I said before, the AF situation is concerning. I think I have seen enough evidences to have some doubts about their practices. If I have a standing and the time, which I don't have either, I will definitely look into it a bit further. It does make me worry somewhat about my AF mileage reserves as I have acquired some from a few successful trades in the past year. Nonetheless, until this is proven however, all we can do is get Randy to discuss this issue on his magazines in July but I am not sure how effective that will be if the problem is as serious and outrageous as some of the members have been encountering so far. Aside from that, I think it would be hard to argue against airlines in courts that they can't charge proper YQ on redemption tickets provided it is reasonable and reflect the actual purpose of the charge, not as a revenue supplement.

Guava

Care to share your actual itineary here? I have a hard time believing this case as it is. My suspicion is Asiamiles made a mistake somewhere in their taxes calculation. I know so based on two things:

1) AA does not charge YQ on most if not all of its domestic and transobrder flights. You may be a victime of the "US Transportation Tax" but some said you are not supposed to be paying for those when the fare is zero, hence, this is where I suspect Asiamiles (CX) might have made the mistake in all honesty.

2) When I book AA flights on short-haul awards, my total taxes & fees are usually in the single digits. For example, one-way JFK/LGA to YUL/YYZ = $2.50 in total taxes & fees

In addition, I book Asiamiles awards on a frequent basis, sometimes on CX, sometimes on partner airlines. Most recently, a redemption of JFK-HKG non-stop on CX F, the total taxes & fees are definitely less than $100. In other words, it's really nothing outrageous like some other examples we have seen so far. Besides, don't forget, YQ is actually regulated in HKG and CX is subject to those regulations.

If you share your itineary here, it would help clarify what the actual problem is. I think a lot of these claims of outrageous YQ are like UFO sightings. Once you really find out the real causes, only a handful of them are trully credible cases of "sightings".