Wait a minute notsonewhere...where does it say that the majority of people on this board agree with ozstamps, because I certainly ain't one of 'em, and I thought I was pretty mainstream in my opinions and have a high tolerance for suffering through offensive behavior.

Rather, I think the majority of the folks on this board are too polite to get into a battle with the prolific schoolyard bully.

I always re-read my posts several times before pulling the trigger to submit, so I end up not posting more than half of the dribble that runs through my head or my immediate reactions to posts. I can't tell you HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE WANTED TO POST something like what Nathan Detroit posted. Only problem is that I don't like to offend, even though ozstamps has managed to offend me so many times in such a short period of time. Yes, he has some good posts, is a TRUE frequent FLYER, and he has been helpful to SOME new members with his comments and ability to search, cut and paste, but I wonder if he realizes that he has managed to offend Arabs and Muslims, Blacks, Chinese, and now Gays through his posts (and e-mails) on this board. Am I being too sensitive here? Perhaps. Is his language intentionally offensive? Perhaps not, but then he must realize that whenever he gets into a heated argument (and has a need to have the last word or throw the last insult) his comments get more and more offensive and less and less tolerable. Yes, I root for members of minority groups that are often discriminated against. Yes, this is partly owing to my background as a Chinese immigrant in the USA.

Combined with the numerous irrelevant, self-aggrandizing junk that I come across from him (yeah, I'm also getting t r i p l e miles on United these days, but do you really care), I am not surprised that there are those on this board that don't appreciate ozstamps' comments sometimes.

I don't like typing this (and I am sure I will have a tough time pulling the trigger this time), but it has gotten to the point where even nice guys (and yes, I think of myself as a nice guy -- I have the scars to prove it -- of course, if this were ozstamps typing, I would have quickly added a URL link leading to my personal journal of my experiences while volunteering for a few weeks at a leper clinic in India two years ago; I would probably have a picture of me on the website showing me posing in front of a man with no limbs) get tired of seeing this board disentegrate into worthless babble and flaming every day.

I realize that I am not helping restore peace to the boards by posting this here, but I need to get this off my chest. I'm sorry if I offended anyone, including ozstamps, with this post, but it represents the culmination of many versions that were never sent. If you disagree with me, feel free to criticise or challenge me. I may or may not deserve it but will nevertheless accept it without regret.

FallinAsleep .. I do not know which BB you have been reading, but this is news to me:

"offend Arabs and Muslims, Blacks, Chinese, and now Gays through his posts"

There was one thread about Saudi Airways that was objected to a week after it was posted by a Saudi Muslim and that matter was eventually resolved between us in a long thread.

I suggest you post here please the other ones "Blacks, Chinese, and now Gays through his posts" .... as they are news to me. I do not recall any post where I was accused of offending anyone Black, Chinese or Gay.

Please make a cup off coffee and READ the material above. I never offended any gay person on these boards, nor do I ever do so. I worked in a major record company for 15 years and half of my friends are gay, and are all delightful people. The other "offences" you will not find but it may take you all day to satisfy yourself you are mistaken.

However the "now gays" one must be right here of course? Please cut and paste what I posted that could possibly have offended any gay person. Others above made light hearted gay jokes. They did not offend me. If they offend YOU .. please berate them, as you got the WRONG victim here!

And if you are Chinese, you will of course recall EXACTLY what I have ever posted here that was anti-Chinese that you raised objection to. Please, I'd love to see it. You are imagining it IMHO. Just like Cigarman was with what he posted, and he later apologised for - I would expect you to do likewise please.

And whilst you are at it, please blame me for the Wall Street Crash, the Great Fire Of London, and Malaria. I had nothing to do with any of those either, but they are still looking for SOMEONE to pin it on.


http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 09-09-2000).]

Holy cow...I just wrote an entire response to you oz with specific references to threads that I found offensive (admittedly, I may be too sensitive), and I pressed the delete button...

anyway, it's past midnight and I need to go to bed, but I will reply within 84 hours... I lose my internet access for a few days before going home to the East Coast

Before I go, I did want to apologize for the comment on "now gays". I did not personally see the email you sent, so I should have not referenced it. Yet, I would add that it is odd for someone to say that they are "105% sure" that someone is not gay IMO. I mean, would you say you are 105% sure that someone is of a certain religion? The point is, like many of your posts: who cares!?!?

I find it a bit interesting about the new members chiming in all of a sudden: raised the alias issue regarding the first post of one of them.

= = =

I have relatively few objections to someone being a back orifice, but when posting of bunches of false stuff embedded in a bunch of true stuff (in either a stupid or malicious way, it appears, perhaps explaining the Murdochization of journalism) is tolerated in good humor by the PTB, that defeats whatever value the board may have to new users. So that along with the almost certain growth of hits (important I am sure to the survival of the site) there is a negation of the stated purpose of the board as well.

The whole episode neatly recaps a lot of recent threads: about volume of posts being a credifier, about how business is not about producing a product but about keeping customers, and so on.

I'm going to take my flyertalk.com tags off my bags today. Maybe Randy will be so kind as to give me a refund for them?

= = =

To Nathan, or Robert: I don't think you should have allowed yourself to be provoked into posting all that information. I've been thinking about the e-mail accountability issue and now think that on sites of this sort, members should be required to divulge a real name, address, and verifiable e-mail to the management BUT NOT to the membership. There should be a way for posters to reach other posters privately, but that might want to be in a forum on the board designed for that purpose, so the recipient of the initial contact can choose whether or not to divulge further personal data.

Sorry for the ramble. It wasn't directed, of course, at you, essxjay, but your post provided the impetus.

We live in a diverse world, whether it be here in FT-land or elsewhere throughout the world. I would suggest that embracing this diversity is a much more positive approach, than ridiculing it or questioning it's existence. I consider oztamps to be part of our diverse world and support/encourage his posts even though they may be nalpalm-like sometimes.

[This message has been edited by transpac (edited 09-09-2000).]

Ozstamps, I am going to offer you some advice, and I advise you to heed it...

I have no problem with your travel-related posts. I have found them interesting, informative, and even I have gotten some useful information from them, and for that, I thank you. But my gripe is tons of non-travel related posts, such as this one.

Before you post, make sure it is travel related. DO NOT POST TO ANY NON-TRAVEL RELATED POST, SUCH AS FLAMES SUCH AS THIS ONE!!.

This is the Internet. Anyone can post anything. Anyone can be anyone. I don't know or care if you are really from Oz. I don't know or care if PremEx is really from Southern California. I don't know or care if Catman is not really from Jersey City. For all I know, he could be from Kansas City.

Just because someone flames you, you don't have to respond!. I think you said once if someone flames you, you will protect your honor by fighting back. This philosophy just makes people hate you more!. No one knows who you are. You don't have to protect yourself.

Just post travel-related things. 20, 30, 50, 2000 a day. It doesn't matter, as long as they are travel related.

If someone posts:
I invite and encourage you to respond, as you will be immensely helping that person, and any "lurker" who might have that same question. If you post 30 posts a day with informative responses to questions like the above, you will be one of the most loved men on FlyerTalk!.

But, if you come upon:
And post aggressively back, people will be upset, angered, and annoyed. And then the original poster and everyone else will coninute to fight you. If you have 10 posts a day of the good variety as described above, but another 10 of this variety, people will dislike you (as seems to be the case now).

If you come upon a post such as this one, walk away. There is no need to protect your honor. I can promise that people WILL notice, and you will be respected way more by not continuing the flame war.

I would direct this message to your private e-mail, but I feel that my words could ring true for many others on this board.

In short: If someone flames you, WALK AWAY!. There is no need to protect your honor. In many times in my life, someone flamed me (in person/real life). I said I'm not going to fight you, since I don't care what you think. This was even harder to do in "real-life" as everyone actually knew me, and on the Internet no one knows you. But, in the end, everyone else respected me more, for not fighting the guy who flamed me. I guess my self esteem was high enough that I didn't need to win a battle to think I was a good person. I knew that I was a good person, so I didn't need to fight someone who put me down to protect my honor.

All IMO. Have a nice weekend everyone.

BB



[This message has been edited by BostonBoy (edited 09-09-2000).]

Transpac, BB http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

ALL wars eventually end - and are so very costly! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Boston Boy

Thanks for the intelligent post. Funny you phrased it like that but a ladyfriend of mine read another thread as it was on my computer screen. She has not looked at FT before. She really was amazed as it was a couple of the yellow spine hooded nutters baiting away, and yes - I responded.

She said .. "you are crazy for doing that. They are small minded faceless people even in that crowd. Ignore what they say and that will really annoy them, and make them look as petty as they appear to be. You will look like you've taken the high ground. Respond and that will please them, waste hours of your time, and hours of many others, and gain no-one anything. Least of all you".

If Punki is reading this, I suspect she will smile as it is pretty much the nub of some of her wise board philospohy, as yes it is mostly males who get tied up in these flame wars. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

So Boston Boy, unless you are really a Boston Girl incognito (and as you say - how does anyone know here!) you came in with much the same advice as my female friend.

I am minded to take it actually, and thanks for outlining it so concisely. I am out of town for the Olympics llatter week, and never carry a laptop, so that will be a good starting point!



------------------
~ Glen ~

Well said BOSTON BOY. Good to see OZ has taken your thoughts on board. This thread was a very rude one for anyone to launch on another board member, and I do not feel Nathan Detroit has won any credibility bonus points from me for starting it.

Peace On Earth ... lets go and earn points and upgrades and forget these pointless flames. OZ just got me a free Hilton night (worth about $200 if we choose right) based on his "Buzz" thread, and those are the kind of fast easy things to accumulate points I'd love ANY of you to post to a new user.

[This message has been edited by goldelite (edited 09-09-2000).]

Oz, Maybe this will refresh your memory. I know with all the offensive posts you can't rememer everyone you insult.

ozstamps
FT Evangelist
Posts: 2383
From:Sunny Sydney, Australia. Star Gold. UA1P, Starwood Gold
Registered: Jun 2000
posted 09-07-2000 08:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well it is 1.20 a.m. here Friday.
Margaret and I have just returned home from dropping Randy Peterson at his Hotel. After a VERY interesting night that involved drag queens and gay bars and white bait, pola pola, and black ravioli and BYO and all sorts of other interesting things I will not go into here.

And I can assure you I am not gay, and I can't really speak for Randy but my guess is there is a 105% probability that is not correct either.

I have decided not to post anything further on this thread.

And Kokonutz ... you really blew it.

And Catman ... you have threatened to resign from this board about 200 times during the few months I have been here.

It is like Dame Nellie Melba. Who cares? I certainly don't. Keep your repeated promise. Go away. Or stay. You are a big boy.

You also will NEVER leave, you know it, I know it, everyone here knows it, so why not stop using the "I might go away" line to gain sympathy and sycophantic reassurance, as it is like the boy who cried wolf - it wears off after awhile IMHO.

Good night


------------------
~ Glen ~


[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 09-07-2000).]

Seems you DID bring up sexual orentation. And from your SPAM MAIL:
--------------------------------------
A couple bottles of white wine later, then across the road to the Albury Hotel. It was “Drag Queen Night” as it happened. Miming and dancing to Tina Turner, Diana Ross and Bee Gees songs. (The Drag Queens were miming - not us, that is!) About cheering 500 gay guys in the Hotel and 4 women. Margaret was drooling ... sort of! Suspect I heard the words “what a waste” muttered a few times.

---------------------------------------
I hope the new posters defending you start to see your lies and realize that your protested innocence are an act.

Yes, i'm guilty of a few too many posts lately attack you. I reached the point where I couldn't look at any thread without finding a no travel post from you. You even post in my preffered airlines forum becaused you "used to fly them" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif
The second thing is that I am gulity of apologizing (as you point out). I tried to step back and try to rise above your attacks, insults, and spam. I admit that I failed in ignoring you. I also admit to apologizing when on reflection I felt I was too harsh. I would point out that I don't think it is a weakness to sometimes admit you were wrong.
Congrats, on yet another career...the recond industry. I hope you find one someday you enjoy...



[This message has been edited by cigarman (edited 09-09-2000).]

Major Kudos to Boston Boy for posting such very wise advice, and Major Kudos to Ozstamps for accepting it so graciously.

For whatever it's worth, you both just received a first class upgrade in my book.

I am beginning to have visions of lions and lambs lying down together. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif (Don't worry about this PremEx, this is just a biblical quote and does not mean that QuietLion has designs on your sheep. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/redface.gif )



[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 09-09-2000).]

Lordy, Lordy, please erase this threat - may be with the help of a webmaster!

I am shutting down my current office for good in a few hours and I haven't even packed all the boxes yet (which is typical for me to procrastinate). I was going to wait until I got home to review with oz some of his "offensive" posts, but in the event that this thread does die an early death, I don't want to be the one to refresh it...

I mentioned that you offended "Arabs and Muslims, Chinese, Blacks, and now Gays" in my original post. I apologize for the last part in a follow up because I did not personally witness it, but I hold to the rest. I do not have a photographic memory, nor do I have doc's facility with the FT search engine, but I will try my best to enlighten you. And, yes, you can make the argument that I may be too sensitive to your remarks. I would rather say that I am being CONSIDERATE of others.

First, you made references to a Saudi prince in Las Vegas. KSA_USA took offense and you refused to politely back down. Instead you kept saying you had pictures to prove what you saw, what you heard, etc. After a long dialogue, KSA_USA was a gentleman to end the issue. Yes, you did as well. And I thought that would be the LAST of those types of threads where you seem to engage the unhappy sides of FT members...

Second, I took offense at your attempt to moderate or act as moderator on and shut down the "Wen Ho Lee" OMNI thread. It was the OMNI board for heaven's sake. Perhaps if you think about what you write first, you will realize that your choice of words along with your constant Bolding and CAPPING (for emphasis I guess) makes your posts louder and more annoying.

Third, for some reason in one of your pre-1000th post, you had to tell us about a cab ride you took to a domestic Aussie airport with a driver of a certain ethnicity with a certain body odor. Personally, I have no idea why we had to read about it, but even if it were appropriate, please remember that sometimes you don't have to add so much "color" to a story in order for it to be effective.

Finally, there was a post where you used certain words representing an organization that I consider too inappropriate to mention. You may have thought that the context of the thread or the previous post would allow you to sneak by, but I recall other posters on FT reminding you that it was indeed inappropriate.

yes, oz, I have read the large majority of your 2000-plus (or are you at 3000 already) posts on the UA, CO, General Travel, and Community boards. I enjoy traveling and flying as much as you and everyone else on this board, but I also try to be sensitive to other cultures and races. perhaps this is due to my upbringing in the United States, which is a true melting pot. It is a unique place and although we have our share of racism and prejudice, at least it is out in the open where it can be addressed. In other parts of the world, prejudice (or is ignorance a better word) is less obvious, so what may be accepted elsewhere is not so easily accepted where I live. And your choice of words and topics exhibit a trend that I do not personally appreciate.

Also, in our diverse workplace, a manager cannot afford to offend ANYONE, not because of potential lawsuits so much anymore, but because people with good skills are highly sought after and can walk away in a heartbeat and find another job, leaving you with nada. The unemployment rate in the States is near zero for all intensive purposes. In the industries I work in, you're lucky if your employee turnover is under 25%.

for the record, I also enjoy some of your posts, but these are often drowned out by the other unrelated musings you post.

"And I can assure you I am not gay, and I can't really speak for Randy but my guess is there is a 105% probability that is not correct either"

And I can assure you I am not jewish, and I can't really speak for Randy but my guess is there is a 105% probability that is not correct either.

Who cares? Potentially inflamatory, irrelevant and not appropriate on this Travel board. Period.
Ozstamps, please.

Punki, I'm gay will you marry me too? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Wait a minute. At 9:02 a.m. FT time, [Ozstamps agreed to try follow Boston Boy's very good advice of posting only good, travel related information. So far he has stuck to that promise and I for one commend him. What is the point of admonishing him for anything he may have said or done in the past.

If we are truly trying to create a better place here, then we would all be wise to follow Mom's advice: Praise the behavior you wish to encourage, and ignore the behavior you wish to discourage.

Droneklax, who knows who I might marry after Joe goes sailing off to do his dancing in the sky. Here are my requirements as previously posted in response to Comicwoman's initial proposal:

"Oh dear, Comicwoman, how can I remain stately if I am rolling on the floor laughing. My tiara will probably slip.
Actually, maybe next time I will marry you because you always make me laugh--a trait greatly under-rated in today's market. My only serious requirements are that my partner is a totally honest and faithful, comes from a wonderful family (you marry your in-laws as well, you know), is drop-dead gorgeous, is a fabulous dancer, a great cook, loves to travel, is a great sailer, will go anywhere with me (i.e., opera, museums, plays, ballet, football games, DUS for the weekend, whatever) is over 6'2" tall, has lots of money, is unfailingly generous, thoroughy adores me, and always behaves with proper etiquette when lucky enough to be invited to wonderful parties.

Other than that I'm not too picky."

I was thinking maybe next time around I could probably drop the 6'2" requirement. That was only for the sake of improving the gene pool of my progeny--hoping to offset my short fat genes with some tall thin ones. I have enough kids already. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I don't think, however, that I could ever live in LA (or Illinois) again, especially in the summer, so that's something we'd have to talk about. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif