Based in Oz, is it worth moving from UA to OW?
 

I'm moving to Melbourne in a couple of months from California and am looking for advice on whether to stick with my UA *G or go for a status match with AA to take advantage of QF locally and other OW carriers out of Australia.

My circumstances:

I'm in academia, meaning i have a pot of money each year from which to draw my travel budget. When it's gone its gone, so i tend to be slightly conservative with prices. Meaning that i usually fly the cheaper fares and then use my miles/coupons + status to upgrade. It works well for me in the US. I almost always fly UA business (using coupons) within the US (once a month) regardless of the initial economy ticket i've purchased. And i have lots of miles from my domestic flights (using the 100% bonus from being premier exec.) that i can upgrade on international trips (2-4 times per year).

What i value most is a reasonable fare, a seat with at least the equivalent of economy+ legroom (which i think is standard for most non-US airlines), and most importantly a pain free experience at the airport (priority lines, boarding, etc). Maintaing *G would get me this last one, but would be at the cost of losing a local carrier (no domestic *A in Australia - i'll probably just fly with the cheapest airline, with or without a FF program).

If i moved to OW i would benefit from local QF flights and lounges (with status match). But i'm unsure about how AA/QF view their economy FF's, how hard it is to upgrade, priority treatment, maintain your status, etc. Especially when compared with UA, with whom i'm very happy (even though their aircraft are somewhat sub-standard by comparison).

In other words, once in Australia is it worth shifting loyalties or simply sicking with UA *G? I saw a thread showing a UA/QF comparison but this was rather dated.

Opinions welcome!

I have always felt that you should join the program of the airline that you fly the most. If you are planning to live in MEL that would likely be QF.

If you want to choose a regional airline and stay with *A then join the SQ program.

I can think of no good reasons to stay with UA.

What will your travel be. Will it be predominantly domestic Au or will there be flights to USA?

With AU domestic, you will not get priority security nor priority boarding since they are not offered however there is a lot less need to rush to be the 1st on the plane in Australia

You are unlikely to get a status match to Qantas unless your company/organisation has a special arrangement with Qantas to do so

If you collect to Qantas, you will be able to earn miles to upgrade but there is no upgrade giveaway frenzy as there is in the US. To go business class, you will normally have to pay for business class or use the miles needed to upgrade ( which , for example, on SYD-MEL is 8000 miles oneway in a cheap economy ticket )

UA Economy plus has 34-36" pitch with 31" in regular economy. On Qantas you are likely to find a pitch of 31-32" unless you take seats such as those in exit rows

It would seem to me that given that there is no Star Carrier domestically that you collect miles either to Virgin if planning to use Virgin Blue or to AA or QF if planning to use Qantas domestically

For international flights you might well be better served using Star flights and crediting to UA since you already have status

Alternatively, collect to AA and when you next do a US trip, undertake a Platinum Challenge and attain Platinum with AA ( OW Sapphire ) and so have lounge access when travelling on OW airlines

Be aware that if you use Jetstar in a cheap ticket you will earn no miles

Dave

It will be a mix of domestic (every 1-2 months) and international, both to the US (~2/year) and Europe (~1-2/year).

Yeah, thats why i was looking for the status match with AA to join OW. But i want to be sure before i ask.

Interesting. So the US carrier beats the Oz carrier in this case. How about leg room?

I think Virgin provide limited international options for me (both directions) and no "family" of airlines to join.

Thanks for your advice.

I would suggest joining the AA scheme and undertaking a challenge when you go to USA. Just make sure that you get a fare for the trip which will earn you 1 qpoint per mile flown and you will get platinum from 1 trip

If possible take the trip to Europe via the USA on AA for full mileage earning and you will be able to easily maintain AA Platinum (OW Sapphire) status and maintain lounge access

To compare with the QF scheme, 2 r/ts to LAX in economy would earn 180 Status credits and 1 round trip SYD-LAX-LHR in economy would earn 150 Status credits which would not be quite enough to attain Silver status (OW Ruby) since the QF scheme is very heavily weighted towards travel in premium cabins for attaining status

Also, if you look at the award tables, you will see the comparative redemption earnings

If you domestic trips are on the short runs such as SYD-MEL , once Platinum you will earn 1000 miles each way which is the same as you would earn as a QF Silver/Gold or Platinum member to QF

One point to be warned of, for domestic flights in AU, do not book the more expensive of the red-e-deals since they are booked in N class and so are ineligable for credit to AA. All other domestic public fares will earn miles to AA

That's about the only way where it comes close to winning though. Seat pitch is average on QF

Dave

djc0 has a similar thread running on the NZ forum Moving to Australia, where to shift my loyalty?

Maybe the Australia, New Zealand & the South Pacific forum is a better home for both of these threads

deleted

While true for QF program, it important to note that there are no AA miles for any Jetstar fares.

I wouldn't rely on credit cards as you'll have no credit history here. I learnt this painful lesson when I lived overseas - I had all the right criteria to get a card, but no history and got rejected each time.

There is an easy way around this. Get an Amex card in your home country and move it to your new country.

Djc0, just be aware that the concept you are used to from the US will not work here: In the US you will buy economy fares and have coupons/miles/something to always upgrade people with status to business/first. This is not happening in the rest of the world. QF and other airlines make it very hard to get upgrades and even with top status and a million miles your upgrades will not come through often.

If I were you I would stay with UA for your international flights. You can use the SWUs to upgrade on your flight to the US. If you get paper SWUs you can upgrade on LH on your flights to Europe which is an excellent deal.

For domestic travel, join AA or QF and get a Qantas Club Membership for lounge access.

@Enigma: I have quite a long (and overall very good) credit history in Australia, just nothing in the last ~10 years. I still have a CBA bank account and also had a CBA credit card up until last year (they closed it because they charged my the annual fee - i had zero balance otherwise - which i never paid. i hope that won't be too much of a black mark!). But i'm aware this my be an issue.


Yeah. After all the advice i think i'm coming to that conclusion. It will also be hard to lose the E+ seats, even though UA's aircraft are not quite as fancy.

On a related note, AA just told me that they'll match my *G to their gold level (*S equivalent i believe). I didn't accept, but they've marked my file with the offer so all i have to do is call back (perhaps before taking the "platinum challenge" so i can at least fly with some status).

Are there any fast ways to get into Qantas lounges while still pumping my miles into UA (other than paying ~$700/year)?

djc0, you'll be fine then. :) Check with your employer/institution here whether they have special offers for Qantas Club memberships - if they do, it'll bring it down to $550 or so.

DownUnderFlyer, even if he got the Amex overseas, would it translate to a Qantas-earning card here? Certainly no offers would be applicable (e.g. 15000 signup offer).

How fast can you run? A friend tried it the other night in brisbane but he wasn't quick enough, he does have a dud back though ;)

Platinum challenge might be the best option for getting club access, especially if you did the transpac flight as part of it. Otherwise there are group "corporate" deals semi regularly organised on ffaus I believe

One note about pitch, on paper Qantas seems bad but there seems to be a hell of a lot more legroom on qantas domestic aircraft (in particular 763's) than on some other airlines with a larger pitch (and that includes aircraft who are also using the "slim" seats). And while qantas are annoying me a bit atm I'd much rather fly a 2ish hour flight on qantas in economy with gold/plat status than fly first class on any US domestic airline.

Great suggestion! And it turns out they do! And if i travel OS 3 or more times per year (which i will) they pay the $555 (as apposed to me paying from my yearly budget).

Well well well, that's great news! Don't cook tonight - it's time for takeout! ;)

Note that even if you have a paid Qantas Club membership, you can still only enter the lounge when you have a departure on a Qantas flight (and AA lounges when flying with AA and BA lounges when flying with BA). So if "pumping miles to UA", then I assume you are not flying on QF, AA or BA, so no lounge access will be available even with a Qantas Club membership.

Valid point, but he's Premier Exec so should have access to lounges when flying United.

Wow, really? So individuals pay nearly $800/year and you can only enter when you fly with them? That's a bit rough. As a RCC member (inferior, admittedly) i use the domestic lounges regardless of who i fly with (thats what i pay for, i.e. lounge access).

It's only really domestic i'm looking for a lounge in. I guess i'll have to wait and see how much i fly with them to decide if its worth it.

Not quite, currently $405 a year but there's a one off joining fee which is what bumps it high the first year. $730 will get you 2 years renewals.

We also used to be able to say "and they're just pacific peso's not real dollars" but that doesn't apply any more

The only way to get anytime access to Qantas Club (and international business class lounges) is to hold Platinum FF status with Qantas. Then you also don't need to pay the Qantas Club annual fee or joining fee.

Sure, why not. He can transfer his Amex card here and then sign up for another Amex card with a bonus offer (if he wouldn't have a credit histrory).


There is a reason why UA looses money and QF makes money....

If your employer pays, then you don't have to worry about the price anyway. Just take it and be happy. If he doesn't pay, you might still be able to salary sacrifice the fee so you will get a rebate of up to 46%. Annual renewal rates are about $350-400 p.a. even without a company discount.

For roughly $365 I'd expect them to do a hell of a lot to justify a 'joining fee'. Talk about a rort! :mad:

I cannot see how their membership access policy would cause them to loose (sic) ( or even lose) money.

Dave

Sorry guys. Didn't mean to get all UA-fanboy on you!

@IMOA: Perhaps the exchange rate is part of the shock? Another example, i was just in Jerusalem drinking $7US beers! Tourist (and non-happy hour) prices admittedly, but the exchange rate does make the rest of the world seem a hell of a lot more expensive nowadays.

@NM: Is this true for OW Sapphire as well?

@Enigma & Dave: It does seem a bit like residuals from the old monopoly mentality i remember so well from particular Australian companies (e.g. getting screwed by Telecom aka Telstra).

@DownUnderFlyer: To be honest i don't know UA's current financial status. I lived in Munich before moving to the US 3 years ago. Before arriving i had a lot of criticism for the US carriers (e.g. compare UA to LH. "No back seat TV! What are they living in the stone-age?!?"). But UA has really inspired a sense of loyalty in me, from what some here are calling generous, but i've just come to expect. Moving countries means i'm considering moving loyalties, for my own convenience of course. But hopefully not at the expense of going back to getting screwed every time i turn around!

Or perhaps i'll just need to reset my expectations. :( ;)

Only QF Platinum get anytime lounge access.

QF Gold and other OW Sapphire/Emerald members only get access when departing on a OW flight.

AA Admirals Club members get access when departing on AA or QF

Qantas Club members get access when departing on a QF, BA or AA flight

Dave

Yeah. So as Enigma said, if i fly *A (international) i'll have their lounges, and if i get Qanats club membership through work and fly the friendly skies that's no problem either. It's really only if i choose to get a real cheap domestic flight on another carrier that i'll have nowhere to rest my weary bones while at the airport. Oh well.

This is true. Also if you fly QF/AA to USA you will still have lounge access by virtue of the QF Club membership / AA Platinum status

Based on what seems to be your travel plans, I would be suggesting migrating to AA for membership and using OW since you should be able to maintain a decent status and get decent mileage earning whilst splitting domestic and international across the alliances you could end up worse off due to lower status

In the end, its your choice and only you can decide which you want to do

Dave

Yep the exchange rate is part of the shock, particularly when comparing prices between the two countries you need to also imagine giving yourself a 30-40% raise to make the comparison "fair". Personally I'm with dave noble here, transfer to AA, do a challenge to get plat, fly qantas and send points to AA. Best of both worlds.

Enigma - Decent facilities, open bar, to be honest the better question is how do american airlines justify their annual fees for what are nothing more than glorified bus shelters

That's an incorrect and unfair characterization.

is it? :confused:

FWIW, it is spelt characterisation in these parts. :p

Traveloguy - oooo, low blow. :) I hope millionmiler took it in the jest it was intended! ;)

millionmiler, I have no problems substantiaiting an annual fee for access/good booze, but charging $300+ as a one-off 'admin' fee to join is an outright rort in my view. Ditto for Qantas charging Australians to join their frequent flyer program (which it conveniently doesn't bother to do with overseas residents).

@djc0: Telstra are still seen as a monopoly.

Ahhh, Australia... land of monopoly. ;)

Basic economics:
QF sells their club membership for a high price and restricts access = High contribution margin.
UA sells their club membership for less money and allows a lot of usage = low contribution margin.

You do this thousands or millions of times and you have money airline making more money than the other.

djc0 - have you considered opening both a QF account and keeping your UA MP account?

you can more easily credit miles/points on domestic OZ flights when flying on QF, lump in points from your Australian credit card, and you should have enough to book award flights within australia. It's notoriously difficult to book international award flights on QF, plus they charge a bunch of surcharges on award tickets that UA doesn't charge.

If you do open an AA account to credit QF miles into, be aware that not all (esp not the lowest fare) fare classes in QF can be credited to AA.

You can then fly *A to/from Europe and to/from the US. I will grant that the soft business class product on UA is significantly inferior to QF. However, it's much much easier getting upgrades on UA than on QF. So if you have status, miles, SWU's on UA, you can pretty easily get your upgrade to business class when flying oz-LAX or oz-SYD.

Umm.. In both examples you gave, both carriers made money from the membership albeit at a lower rate.

There are other things to take into consideration; for example QCs provide free drinks and snacks whilst UA lounges domestically charge for alcoolic drinks (iirc) and do not provide food.

Given that UA charges for drinks, by allowing more people in they have the opportunity to make more money out of the person by selling them items. If there is minimal free offerings in the lounge , it doesn't make much difference cost running wise to let people in

The post I replied to was arguing that allowing all in was causing them to loose (sic) money , not that one model would be more profitable

Dave

The RCC, whilst admittedly not the best of the lot, offers snacks and now free wireless. I can go without the beer or bourbon while waiting for my flight.

Also, non-alcoholic drinks are free of course.

In light of the recent changes to QFF, you might want to stick with UA and fly DJ domestically.

[mod hat]

You've posed a question that cuts across various FF programs. Since you're looking at OW as one option - perhaps the QF FF or AA Advantage as one of the OW options, I'm going to move this thread to the OW forum, and make reference to the question you asked in the other airline forums - being NZ, AC and bmi.

BMI FFP loyalty for someone based in Australia?

Moving to Australia, where to shift my loyalty?

Picking AC solely for *G potential?

Many of the posters in OW and *A have status in both, so hopefully you'll have a good balance of answers there.

[/mod hat]

While agree with you that it is normally the best way to hold status with the airline you fly most, I can't recommend SQ KF unless you plan to become a PPS member. SQs earn/burn ration is nothing to write home about. If you are looking for an alternative to UA MP I'd suggest to have a close look at BD DC and M&M.

What changes were negative?
QFF have "enhanced" their programme, it is just at an unbelievable redemption rate!:td:
There have been no cutbacks in current offerings or status earning. QFF works for me, however I do not redeem my points for flights and I can acheive a high status tier when I could not on other programmes.