AONE4 query
 

Hi folks - this is a weird one.

I have a friend, a complete Luddite in terms of maximising the benefits of regular air travel, that want's to take her son on a RTW trip of a lifetime. He recently lost his father.

(She is also a complete Luddite when it comes to internet access, she needs to ask how to turn on a computer, so was completely bamboozled when I suggested she become a member of FT - she asked "What is a bulletin board!" So any replies that I get I will be printing out, taking to her, and then getting her response and then posting back here - so expect some delays)

I suggested that she join a program (initially AA, but after finding out about about her travel patterns - a fair bit of DJ domestically in Australia - I think QF WP status would be best, as she will be able to access QP's under the anytime access policy) and at the same time join the ranks of frequent flyers and earn points and status for the trip.

She's a great person and has a flexible itinerary outside of visiting HKG, YVR, SFO, LHR and CNS. I'd like to see her and her son make Platinum from the trip so hope you guys can massage the following ITN to make sure they do.

I understand she will book into QF code shares where possible to max her return. The trip is an AONE4 so easily done I think. Can I also have some input relating to NA DOM travel in F maxing out the use of INT equipment over the DOM F Class.

Current itinerary is as follows:

One potential problem I can see is the SYD-CNS-SYD at the end, given the AONE4 starts in SYD, is a SYD-CNS-SYD allowed after arriving in SYD on the SIN-SYD sector?

If this is an issue, perhaps instead of SIN-QF-SYD, maybe SIN-QF-BNE, using a red-e-deal for BNE-SYD (to get home), then a red e-deal SYD-BNE to resume the AONE4 BNE-CNS-SYD.

As I mentioned, I am merely passing this on, I am by no means an expert on the xONEx rules, having never needed to do one.

As mentioned, Suzie flies a lot on DJ, and can benefit from WP status with QF, so looking to maximise QF status, namely WP.

Also, as mentioned (a couple of times) I am passing this on - I will collate replies, pass them on to Suzie, get feedback, and then come back, so expect some delays in responses.

Dave

To maximise earning for QFF she wants QF, BA or AA flight numbers where possible, and as usual operating airline code is better than using a codeshare.

For NA domestic the better first class is mainly the LAX/SFO trans-cons and some intra-hub flights (between ORD, DFW and perhaps also MIA).

She may need to be flexible for travel over Christmas and lunar new year periods.

Something as simple as SYD-HKG-jfk-YVR-dfw-SFO-LHR-SYD-CNS-SYD appears to meet the requirements and qualifies QF WP from scratch - only YVR-DFW-SFO and SYD-CNS-SYD don't have longhaul first class. (YVR-SFO can be done on QF if schedule/season permits).

With only 8 or 9 flights there is plenty of scope for extra travel, but the north america transcon is already used up (JFK-YVR) as is the 2 stopovers in continent of origin (and 2 of the 4 permitted flights - any extras cannot include NZ). Another 11 or 12 flights can be included for free (max 4 in asia, 4 in europe, 3 or 4 in north america, 2 in australia).

One thing to be aware of is that even though the rules do not specifcally prevent such a routing as SYD-...-SYD-CNS-SYD, there have been reports that some TA's and Airline Agents will not book such an itinerary.

(Several years ago, the rules DID spefically state that returning to the point of origin would end the itinery. This is no longer the case)

I have no personal experience to compare first-class service between airlines and flights, so the following is a very unqualified suggestion, but if mileage maximization is a subgoal and a extra flight hours is not a concern, perhaps making SYD-NYC on QF, LAX-LHR or YVR-LHR on BA, LHR-HKG on CX, and HKG-SYD on QF as the transcontinental legs would be worth considering. Or HKG-AKL on CX if they haven't been to New Zealand.

The itinerary in your original post isn't valid as it enters Asia twice.

And Katoomba is indeed a lovely place (even when it's raining and misty like it was when we were there in June -- part of our DONE4).

It's OK so long as the LHR-SIN & SIN-SYD have just a transit in SIN.

Two entries are permitted in Asia as long as one is a transit without stopover between Europe and SWP.

Ok, thanks for this so far.

I received a query about maximising QF miles by using QF flights or code-shares using QF flight numbers, I explained that as long as the booked flight carried a QF, AA or BA flight number, then status bonuses would kick in (and based on the intended itinerary, they will start to kick in fairly quickly).

Will keep monitoring, will keep on passing feedback to my friend, I will anser any queries she has which I can answer, and will pass on anything I cn't answer to this forum

Dave

You should have popped into the Australia & South Pacific Forum and let us all know your planned itinerary - if I had known you were in the mountains, we could have organised something.

Dave

Ok, the itinerary has been (sort of) settled. I will keep on making suggestions, but the following has been booked (my notes are in italics):

SYD-SFO QF 73
I'm wondering whether it would be more advantageous to book under the AA 7381 code. Some agents will ticket based on the first carrier, if the first stage is QF it will be on an 081 ticket, and QF fuel fines will apply, if on the AA code it will be on a 001 ticket with AA fuel fines - will this be an issue?)

SFO-LAX AA 1943

LAX-ORD AA 88
The only flight with decent equipment - a 763 - everything else is M83 or 757

ORD-LAX AA 55
See above

LAX-LHR BA 282

LHR-HKG CX 252 Waitlisted in A class
Wants to avoid the A340. Have suggested the QF 30, operates to similar times, but wants to try different OW carriers. Have also suggested AY, LHR-HEL-HKG as an alternative option.

HKG-MEL QF 30

The rest are domestic Australian flights, MEL-CNS-MEL-BNE-SYD, resulting in a total of eleven sectors, so have nine sectors up her sleeve. Any thoughts?

The goal is to get QF Platinum status, which should be achieved after stage 10 (MEL-BNE).

Any thing else I should pass on to her? If so, please post it and I will pass it on, and get back to you all.

Dave

Be aware that AY has no F, just J and Y, so a bit of a waste on an AONE4.

Which of these are stopovers? You're only allowed 2 in the continent of origin - are the stopovers CNS and BNE? If so, why fly into MEL? Returning to the point of origin (SYD) is permitted and does not end the itinerary.

I presume for the extra points and SCs. Both SYD-CNS and MEL-CNS are zone 3 for QFF earning (and BNE-CNS is not). MEL is easier to transfer than SYD, so it makes sense to me.

Oops - I should have been clearer - it should read:

HKG-X/MEL-CNS-MEL-X/BNE-SYD

One query though, the Brisbane stop will be overnight, but less than 24 hours. For domestic fares, QF regards this as a stopover, does QF apply this rule to an xONEx fare?

Any thoughts on whether the QF or AA code should be used for SYD-SFO to start it all off?

Also, which carriers tickets should be used - I'm leaning towards AA, in order to save on fuel fines.

Dave

Isn't this a code share on Alaska Airlines? If so, it's not allowed on an XONEX.

Never mind - It appears tt7 is right (see next post).

No, I think that's just a regular AA flight; the AS codeshare flight numbers are in the 70xx series.

I must admit, Xs and Os always confuse me .... so the stops are in MEL and BNE? If so, why fly MEL-CNS-MEL-BNE? Or is it the other way round and the stops are CNS and MEL?

If it's the latter, to avoid BNE being a stopover, it may have to be last flight in/first flight out. We had that recently on a OW Circle SWP/Asia ticket where we were going MEL-SYD-NRT. Would have much preferred to take a late afternoon flight to Sydney, taken the train into town, had a nice dinner, train back to the airport etc and then out the next morning to NRT - couldn't do it because we weren't allowed a stopover in SYD and so it had to be last flight of the day in/out the next morning (on the first available flight).

As for AA or QF SYD-SFO, not sure it makes a difference - if she's going to be in the QF program, might as well pick the QF flight number.

As for who to get to ticket it, not sure you can get AA to do it as they no longer have an Oz ticket office, since they closed North Sydney. If you find a way to get AA to ticket it in Oz, let me know as I have that problem. You may have to get QF to do it ...

.... though now that I think about it, I guess any AA office (well, almost any) could do it. The ticket has to be issued in the country of origin (Oz) to get the Oz price; if ticketed elsewhere, that country's price applies, but only if it's higher. A and D tickets are more expensive out of the U.S., the U.K. and Oz than they are out of say Japan. We start our DONE4s in Japan and have AA Tokyo issue them. I guess there's nothing to stop AA Tokyo issuing the ticket and charging you the higher of the Japan/Oz price (which will be Oz), which is what she would be paying anyway. If it's electronic (=< 16 segments), they should be able to do it by phone/email. I had them do 3 tickets for me last week, so can provide details, if needed.

xONEx rules apply - ie takes 24 hours to be a stopover.

Some random thoughts on your friend's itinerary. Obviously, some are mutually exclusive but with nine spare segments, there is great potential :)

1. Is there the possibility of spreading the trip over two Qantas FF years to get Platinum status and then make a good start to retaining it?

2. With forthcoming changes mooted and a number here saying that WP status may be harder to obtain, maintain flexibility to adjust the itinerary (or migrate to AA!) when the changes are announced.

3. Why not QF First Syd-JFK and then back to the West Coast?

4. She seems to have dropped Vancouver but there is the genuine First on CX to/from JFK and interesting diversions such as YVR-MEX on JL a couple of times a week albeit not in First.

5. What about a side trip from JFK to BGI?

6. In Europe she had no trips - what about something a bit more exotic than the standard such as Funchal or Amman to see Petra?

Anyway, I see she has booked but maybe these suggestions give you more thoughts.

It is the latter, X's represent a Transfer.

The X/ appears to be the industry standard, a hangover from the old 64 bit days with no lower case.

I'd prefer it was notated like this: -HKG-xMEL-CNS-MEL-xBNE-SYD or possibly -HKG-mel-CNS-MEL-bne-SYD.

All comments passed on, some of which I had already made to her. I'll get back to you.

Dave

Kiwi Flyer - is that in the *file somewhere (or written somewhere else) do you know? It's normally a moot point for a xONEx as - other than the continent of origin - you can have as many stopovers as you like, so doesn't come into play very often. As mentioned earlier, we had the stopover problem on a DAS17 (Circle Asia SWP) where the number of stopovers is limited. We couldn't get the direct MEL-NRT flight so had to go MEL-SYD-NRT ... and couldn't get to SYD same day in time, so had to go the day before ... and AA enforced the last flight in/first flight out rule. Obviously, the xASx rules on stopovers may be different from the xONEX rules, though I don't know why they would be.

The xASxx rules published on the oneworld site don't define stopovers (neither do the xONEx rules).

I guess that leaves it up to the booking agent somewhat.

Edited to add: The OWE starfiles contained this line for years

until 18 April 2006 when, for some perverse reason, it was removed from the rules.

You're right. The older version of xONEx rules defined stopover and now they don't. Very odd.

So if you book via Qantas you get their 24 hours stopover definition and horrendous fuel fines; book via AA you skip most of the fuel fines but possibly some other definition of a stopover.

I've been trying to find an IATA definition of a stopover (which would be the default) - with little success.

Book and ticket via AA, and then amend bookin with QF to match their definition perhaps?

Dave

Before this stopover 'problem' gets a life of its own, why are we even suggesting AA, or any other airline, takes a view that differs in any way from the 24hr limit it has always been for the OWE? Yes, the definition is no longer in the starfile, and one wishes it was reinstated, just to be safe, but what evidence is there that anything has changed for the worse?

For a OWE, none that I know of - but on a DAS17 (Circle Asia SWP) ticket, AA enforced the last flight in/first flight out rule on me on a MEL-SYD-NRT connection. Those tickets have a maximum of 5 stopovers and we'd used our 5 so weren't allowed a stopover in SYD. We had to overnight in SYD (as we couldn't get there in time in the morning for the NRT flight) so would have left MEL around 5pm, had a nice dinner in SYD and then left the next morning - couldn't do it - had to take the last MEL-SYD flight of the day.

There's no reason to suppose the OWE stopover rules have changed .... but then why would it be different on a DASx vs. a xONEx? Also, 'interesting' that the definition is no longer in the *file. Obviously, whatever rule is enforced by whichever airline is issuing the ticket is what counts .... YMMV.

Simply tt7's post here in this thread: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showp...9&postcount=21

The experience mentioned in that post is about DAS17, not the Oneworld Explorer I refer to.

Viajero, I know that. As I said in both posts in this thread in which I mentioned it, it was on a DAS17, not a xONEx. As I said in the post 2 posts above yours, "There's no reason to suppose the OWE stopover rules have changed .... but then why would it be different on a DASx vs. a xONEx? Also, 'interesting' that the definition is no longer in the *file. Obviously, whatever rule is enforced by whichever airline is issuing the ticket is what counts .... YMMV."

All I was attempting to do was to give the OP (and others who bother to read what I said) a 'heads -up' to a potential pitfall that certainly caught us out, albeit on a different ticket type. I made the fact that it was a different ticket type explicitly clear. I made the observation in an effort to be helpful to someone who was planning a ticket where stopovers are usually not much of an issue but where it was relevant to the planning that was being done.

And I know that you know, always did, since your first post in this thread. Your two posts were clear, the details explicit and I understood perfectly well the message you conveyed. No argument from me on that score, so if I managed to give a different impression my apologies. I could try to explain again what I meant by my comments but don't want to stuff it up even further, so I will bow out with a mea culpa and leave it at that. :)

Exactly -Perhaps the oneworld entities have agreed to disagree on this so there is no specific definition.

Is there any published IATA definition of a stopover that could be applied to these alliance products?

Please don't do that .... and certainly no mea culpa needed!

I was just beginning to wonder whether my "horrendous grammar" (apparently a problem in the opinion of one FT poster, in another thread) was so incomprehensible that you had perhaps missed the DAS17 vs. xONEx references. Obviously not. :)

It's a bit like reading an English menu in a Japanese restaurant. They get it just about right - close enough so that you have some idea what you're ordering but you're always left wondering why they didn't have someone who's a native-language English speaker fix it up for them. It's the same with *files and the published rules on the oneworld website (and AA.com for that matter). Do they ever consider having people who actually buy the tickets (or otherwise use the information) critique what they publish to check whether (a) it's understandable and (b) unambiguously answers the questions that ticket buyers want or need to know (like "what's a stopover on this ticket?").

On the DAS17, it's a maximum of 8 segments and you're allowed 5 stopovers (no more than 1 at any one point). However, you can purchase additional stopovers.

Q. If you do that, can you then have 2 stopovers at the same point?
A. No. At least that's what I was told when I asked (which I had to do as it wasn't - at least to me - unambiguously clear).

.... and I guess I've now digressed sufficiently to take this topic waaay off course, for which my apologies to one and all ...

In some cases the ambiguity may be deliberate.

Just an update, and to confirm that my undestranding of the rules is correct.

Currently flying back into SYD, and we need stays in SYD, CNS and then SYD again - this is against the rules, as it will be three stopovers in continent of origin.

I am advising that the AONE4 will consist of (towards the end) HKG-AKL-xSYD-CNS-SYD-xBNE-SYD, so the first SYD will be a transit, CNS will be the first stopover, the second SYD will be the second stopover, and BNE will be an overnight transit. This will amount to four sectors, two stopovers within the continent of origin. This will be within the rules, won't it?

Nested into all that will be AKL-SYD-AKL, probably in steerage, but who knows.

So, flying into AKL on the AONE4, out on the nested side trip, a few months in SYD, back to AKL on the nested side-trip to resume the AONE4, AKL-SYD in A on either QF or LA (yeah, I know difficult) then up to CNS and so on.

Any thoughts on this one?

Dave

New zealand is also part of the SWP continent, so this won't help you. You have 3 stopovers (AKL, SYD and CNS) and 5 sectors in SWP.

Bugger - and there was me thinking that a "continent" was the dictionary version.

Back to the planning board.

Thanks for that.

Dave