pandaperth

OK I know, AT’s joining Oneworld won’t happen for 18 months. But hey, this is FT and we like discussing what might happen in the future, right? I’m just throwing this out there, to see what fellow FTers think of it – good points/bad points, that sort of thing

My first idea is that the definition of the continent of North Africa should change to include the six North African countries that are currently defined to be part of Europe/Middle East
(the six countries are Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and Sudan)

My second idea is that the Middle East should cease being part of Europe/Middle East and become part of a new continent, namely Africa/Middle East (and of course Europe will become its own continent)

AT’s Route Map
AT’s Route Map shows that the airline flies from Morocco to:

• various African destinations (including Algiers, Tunis, Tripoli and Cairo, but not Khartoum),
• various European destinations,
• a few Middle Eastern destinations (Beirut, Doha, Riyadh and Jeddah)
• three North American destinations (YUL, JFK and IAD)
• two South American destinations (GIG and GRU)

It does not fly further East than the Middle East, and its most southerly destination in Africa is Luanda, Angola. It does not connect to any Comair flights in southern Africa (Comair is the BA subsidiary that has small southern African network)

If the Current Definition does not change
Flying from the Americas to Morocco means you are flying to the continent of Europe/Middle East, NOT to Africa (so there will still be no North America-Africa flight available)

So AT will be just another Europe/Middle East carrier that flies to Africa, the same as BA, IB and QR. Adding a few more destinations there for sure, but not providing decent coverage of Africa

If North Africa becomes part of Africa
Flying from the Americas to Morocco means you are now flying non-stop to the continent of Africa

From Morocco you could use AT’s network to visit Africa, including North Africa

However, the only ways to proceed are:
- take a surface segment to southern Africa, and proceed from there (to Asia or South West Pacific)
- or fly to Europe/Middle East

Taking a surface segment to southern Africa means that Europe/Middle East can be avoided. This will make possible 3-continent itineraries that include both Africa and Nth America
(Nth America – Africa –Asia/SWP – Nth America)

If the new continent Africa/Middle East is defined

• The continent would have four Oneworld carriers – AT, BA (Comair), RJ and QR
• Good coverage of the continent
• Good connectivity to other continents.
• Some intra-continent connectivity between AT and QR/RJ

ernestnywang

While the way OW breaks up continents does not 100% conform with IATA definitions, save for countries that OW members don't actually fly to, there is almost a match. IATA groups Northern Africa and Middle East with Europe.

JAXBA

Quote:

Originally Posted by pandaperth

My second idea is that the Middle East should cease being part of Europe/Middle East and become part of a new continent, namely Africa/Middle East (and of course Europe will become its own continent)

My initial thoughts on this would be to ask whether those who fly from the Americas to DOH on QR are more likely to want to then use four segments within EUR/ME or AFR/ME - and I'd suspect they'd rather backtrack to EUR...

Could it perhaps be possible to group N. AFR/ME together and make them a kind of half continent, whereby you can visit the rest of EUR -or- the rest of AFR without needing to add a continent? If you visit both continental EUR and sub-Saharan AFR then the usual continent count increases.

e.g.
Americas-CMN-Africa-(DOH)-Asia-Americas - "xONE3AFR"
Americas-CMN-Europe-Asia-Americas - "xONE3EUR"

Dr. HFH

... resulting in an increased price to anyone who wants to fly to CAI or Morocco, -- xONE3 would now need to be xONE4. I'm not sure how that benefits passengers.

anabolism

Are you saying that the main advantage of the change would be to allow an xONE3 that would otherwise be an xONE4? E.g., North America, Africa, and either Europe or South America?

Dr. HFH

Well, there are several things here.


1. I don't think that an itinerary of N.A., Africa and Europe-or-S.A. would work for an xONEx ticket. From the Rules,What would your TPAC leg be?


2. Pandaperth talks a couple of times about the continent of North Africa.There is no continent of North Africa in the rules. In Rule 0, continents are defined as Europe/Middle East, Africa, Asia, Southwest Pacific, North America, and South America.


3. Currently, Egypt and Morocco can be visited on an xONE3 starting in Europe, N.A., or Asia. If you move them into Africa and keep the same starting point, then you would need an xONE4 to visit them.

pandaperth

So firstly, there's not a lot of interest in this topic, judging by the dearth of replies
Secondly, I have to apologise for an inadvertent error in the first post
When I wroteI meant to writeElsewhere in the first post, where I referred to North Africa I was referring to the region, not a new continent I was suggesting
Apologies for any confusion caused
I will amend my first post accordingly

I was not aware of this. So my idea might add to issues with SABRE's autovalidation/autopricing of itineraries

As for most changes in life, there are winners and there are losers
The winners would be those wanting to get from North America to Africa without having to touch (and therefore pay for) either Europe or South America

Quote:

Could it perhaps be possible to group N. AFR/ME together and make them a kind of half continent, whereby you can visit the rest of EUR -or- the rest of AFR without needing to add a continent? If you visit both continental EUR and sub-Saharan AFR then the usual continent count increases.

e.g.
Americas-CMN-Africa-(DOH)-Asia-Americas - "xONE3AFR"
Americas-CMN-Europe-Asia-Americas - "xONE3EUR"

My first reaction is :EEK:



My second reaction is recall the difficulties airline fares teams had with correctly interpreting the rules on backtracking to Europe/Middle East. Remember tables like this?Yes, an increase for those that want to go Egypt/Morocco and Europe
But not for those that want to go Egypt/Morocco and Africa
Winners and Losers

No. The main advantage is good coverage of Africa/Middle East
More options for xONE3s is an added benefit

Apologies for the confusion

Not necessarily
Starting in N.A. or Asia you could substitute Africa/Middle East for Europe and still have an xONE3
Starting in Europe, it would have to be an xONE4
Winners and Losers

ernestnywang

Yes and no. For example, right now the oneworld continent definition and IATA continent definition are not the same for Libya (but I don't think any oneworld airline flies to Libya currently, although RJ used to), so the routing section of the xONEx fare rules needs to make a special note on that. On the other hand, there is a general zone code for North Africa, so there is no need to list every single country as exceptions. Nevertheless, it would be much easier to write those routing codes for autoprice if the oneworld definition and IATA definition exactly align.

Calchas

I can see oneworld tweaking a rule here or there but I don't think they'll change the whole continent system.

On the other hand, suppose AT starts a non-stop on CMN-JNB. I don't know what the O&D is on that route, but timing-wise AT could become one of the most efficient one-stops from JNB to JFK.

pandaperth

The Oneworld announcement stated that So my (totally uninformed) guess is that JNB will be one of Air Maroc's new destinations

In addition to JFK, the other North American ports served by Air Maroc might also get good connections in CMN to JNB.

But if the continent definition does not change, then on an xONEx such flights would be "touching" (and therefore paying for) Europe/Middle East

Dr. HFH

Not to mention a nice way to avoid LHR taxes/surcharges on an OWE ticket ex-JNB.

allset2travel

+1. Merry Christmas !!

Kiwi Flyer

No different to flights between Europe and Australia considered to touch Asia
currently SYD-(SIN-)LHR, PER-LHR
in the past also SYD-(DXB-)LHR, MEL-(DXB-)LHR, SYD-(BKK-)LHR, MEL-(SIN-)LHR, MEL-(HKG-)LHR and I may have forgotten some

gkbiiii

Add Miami to RAM's North American Destinations:
https://onemileatatime.com/royal-air-maroc-miami/

It carried 7.3 million passengers last year on a fleet of 55 aircraft, with a network that currently connects its Casablanca base with 94 destinations in 49 countries across Africa, Europe, the Middle East and North and South America, including oneworld hubs Doha, London Heathrow, Madrid, Moscow Domodedovo, New York JFK, Miami, and Sao Paulo.

https://www.oneworld.com/news-inform...orld/maximized

gkbiiii

Royal Air Maroc's vast African Destination Map. Great for businessmen, who have to go, to unpleasant places for work!