3 cont OWE ex-BUD
 

Hi everyone,
Reading Darren's OWE plans have been great for helping with working out what routings are allowed on these tickets. However, I'm still not completely sure, so I would greatly appreciate it if someone took a look at the following routing and confirms that it is / isn't OK-
For a OWE 3 continent fare departing from BUD:

1. BUD-LHR-HKG-CMB (BA,BA,CX respectively, no stopover in LHR or HKG. 4 weeks in CMB).

2. CMB-HKG-SYD (CX,QF with no stopover in
HKG. 2 weeks in SYD).

3. SYD-LHR (BA. 2 weeks in London).

4. LHR-MCT (BA. 3 days in Muscat, Oman).

5. MCT-LHR-BUD (BA,BA, with no stopover
in LHR).

Am I correct in assuming that Oman is in Europe for OWE purposes?
Also, I actually live in London and am only starting from BUD because as many of you have pointed out, the business class fare is so much cheaper from BUD (I will make my own way in Economy from LHR-BUD at the start and from BUD-LHR at the end). I have read many posts here confirming that you all in the US can purchase the Hungarian OWE fare from the States in US dollars. Can I assume that in the UK, I will similarly be able to go to the BA travel shop and purchase the cheaper Hungarian OWE fare in £GBP?
Regards
Salt

Hello salt,

First of all, the rule states "ITINERARIES WHICH INCLUDE EUROPE AND THE SW PACIFIC MUST BE A MINIMUM OF FOUR CONTINENTS". Meanwhile, SWPacific-Europe is considered backtracking, and you are not allowed to do so. Your itinerary as Europe-Asia-SWPacific-Europe should be modified as Europe-Asia-SPacific-NAmerica-Europe, therefore, is a four continent Oneworld Explorer.

Second, you must have the ticket issued and paid in Hungary, not UK. The general rule of OWEs is SITI, sold inside ticketed inside the country of origin, and SOTO, sold outside ticketed outside, is not allowed. Only Canada and US seem to be exempt of this rule, and in these two countries, SOTO is allowed. But not UK. In the case of an ex-BUD OWE, you must complete your reservations, payment and ticketing with a travel agent in Hungary. I advise you ask airlines, credit card companies (e.g. AMEX) or large travel consolidators in the UK for recommended Budapest agents.

Third, you can fly to Muscat within the Europe continent boundary.

Finally, try digging up as many posts relating to OWEs using the "Search" button up there. You'll find past completed itineraries, rules in the original text and many tips for reservations. If you can familiarize yourself with the general rules as much as possible, your ticketing experience will be much more painless. And, keep on asking questions here, allot of the rules are very tricky in interpretation.

OWE General Rules at hsi.chang's website: http://www.geocities.com/osointer/ownotes.htm

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A note to fellow FTers: My agent in Budapest has been mentioning that she'd been receiving allot of foreign inquiry since I last completed my own reservations. While this kind of proves how effective this board is in terms of getting public exposure (wow!), it's a good thing for the Hungarian travel industry and the Oneworld alliance in getting more business. However, the agent was mentioning her office was starting to experience some stress; only a very small fraction of the inquiry are actually "serious," and some are rather abrupt and demanding in content. Therefore, I have a word of advise to my fellow FTers trying out for their first OWE reservations: Please bear in mind your single reservation occupies a considerable portion of the agent's working hours, and try your best to present your reservation request in the most detailed and final format. Utilize this board and make yourself familiar with the rules, ask questions like darren and salt, and make best use of tools such as ITN and downloadable timetables for airline websites. And, please be polite to our fellow agents, they're human just like us.

Sincerely,

silver


[This message has been edited by silver (edited 10-05-2000).]

Do the rules say you have to cross the Atlantic and the Pacific? I thought they said you could cross them only once (but didn't have to is how I read that). I would think you could do EUR - ASIA - AUS - AFR - EUR (4 conts). Not certain though. Also, what defines a circle Pacific trip. Would that be Asia - AUS - NA - Asia?

Chris, I stand corrected. The rule does not say you have to cross the Atlantic and the Pacific. I've modified my comment above accordingly.

Europe-Asia-SWPacific-Africa-Europe is not allowed because of the backtracking between SWPacific and Europe. Meanwhile, you can do a 3 continent OWE as Europe-Asia-Africa-Europe because you are allowed to back track Asia-Africa and Africa-Europe (asked AY and was told okay). http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif Also, you are allowed to have two intercontinental arrivals and departures for Asia. Therefore you can do a 4 continent OWE as Europe-x/Asia-SWPacific-Asia-Africa-Europe. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Asia-SWPacific-<transpacific flight>-NAmerica-<transpacific flight>-Asia is defined as a circle pacific flight. OWEs don't allow this. You can find circle pacific fares ex-Australia and ex-HKG if you're interested.

[This message has been edited by silver (edited 10-05-2000).]

Silver, thanks very much for your help- your link to the OWE rules cleared a lot of basic things up (like the first line of rules that says if I want to begin in Europe and include Aus, it must be a minimum of 4 conts and not 3 like I had planned http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/redface.gif). I only wish I'd found those rules earlier.
As you say, I will indeed have to modify the route to include N.America. At least it means that I may be able to get a BA Gold card out of it instead of the silver one that I would have got on my planned routing http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif
Regarding having the ticket issued in Hungary- if I got in touch with BA Budapest over the phone, could I buy the ticket by credit card and have it posted to my UK address? Would this still comply with the SITI rule? Sorry if the answer is obvious- I'm still a bit new to this business.
Thanks again for your detailed reply.
Salt.

[This message has been edited by salt (edited 10-06-2000).]

Very unlikely. Most places in 'eastern' Europe still require you to actually sign and pay for the ticketup front.

However, with the RTW rules, you are permitted to buy the ticket up to one hour prior to departure!

So, get BA in UK to make the entire reservation, and then say that a 'relative' will pay for it in Budapest at the airport, so BA will price it as ex-BUD and not ex-LHR. Then take a flight to BUD, and go to the BA ticketing counter at the airport. Issue the ticket and check in for your return flight.

Either that, or go buy a return ticket to bud for about 150 pounds, and go buy it in person. You will still be saving some cash.

Hi Darren and Guy,
If I make a special trip to Budapest next week and buy some RTW tickets for 6 months time for my family and me, will BA Budapest actually print out the RTW tickets there and then or will they post them to the UK at a later date? Or worse still will we only be able to collect the RTW tickets from BUD airport hours before we start the RTW route in 6 months time?
(The reason I ask is because I am now giving the idea serious consideration).

[This message has been edited by salt (edited 10-06-2000).]

Salt - You can issue the tickets for travel anytime. But remember that you must still return to Budapest to originate the flight.

But what you can do is buy a cheapie Saturday night overnight return. Go to Budapest. Issue the ticket on BA. And return on that day using the RTW ticket. You may 'discard' the return on your cheapie ticket because you have no intention of staying overnight anyway. However, I suggest a weekend getaway to Budapest. Beautiful city. Really good value for money in terms of accomodation and food.

The first sector of the RTW must be booked. But all subsequent sectors can be left OPEN and then you can then proceed from LHR where you are based. You stuck by the rules anyway.

If you decide to change your routing after that first flight from Budapest, you are permitted one reissue free of charge.

Please remember to get BA in LHR to book the entire routing first. You don't have to say that the ticket is for you. Ask them to make the reservation in all the respective names you want. Then say that this person will pick up the ticket at the airport about 2 hours prior to departure. The Oneworld RTW rules state that tickets may be issued up to ONE HOUR prior to departure. HOWEVER, BA may insist that the ticket be issued by a deadline.

Unfortunately, even though in theory all Oneworld airlines have the same rules in issuing this ticket, it is still up to the issuing airline to have the final say on how and when they want you to have the ticket issued.

[This message has been edited by Guy Betsy (edited 10-06-2000).]

Guy- I think I'll definitely head over to BUD on a cheap ticket to buy my OWE.

I had planned on the following routing:
BUD-ASIA via LHR but no stopover in LHR.
ASIA-AUS
AUS-USA
USA-LHR. Here, I'll take the stopover in LHR (for about 6 months) before flying LHR-MCT and then MCT-LHR-BUD to end the trip.

As you can see, because I am going straight into my holiday in Asia from BUD, hotels etc would need to be pre-booked (as there are 5 of us). To minimize risk, I will only book the hotels after the flights have been confirmed, so going to BUD on a cheap fare and then confirming the OWE for the same/ next day would not allow enough time for hotels to then be booked in Asia.
Instead, I will go to BUD on the cheap fare next month and return a couple of days later. I'll be able to sample Budapest, as you advise http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
While I'm there, I'll confirm and pay for the OWE fares for 6 months later (having initially booked them via BA London). You say that there shouldn't be a problem getting the tickets printed there and then. OWE s in hand, all 5 of us will then make a trip to BUD in 6 months time on another cheap ticket. By now, our hotels in Asia etc will be confiirmed and we should then be able to begin the OWE route from BUD.
Hope this will be OK
Regards
Salt.

Silver.....ah, now I know what you were getting at. Sorry to get technical about the rules. I agree according to the rules you could not do the above (unless you got a lenient agent). For "Europe-Asia-SWPacific-Africa-Europe" you could do EUR - Asia - SWP - Africa (via Asia)- EUR as long as the rule for entering Asia twice is still in effect. Now that I am thinking about it, you could do Europe-Asia-Africa-SWPacific-NA-SA-Europe, right?

The only other itineraries I can think of that doesn't include an oceanic crossing is Asia - SWP - AFR - Asia and SWP - Asia - AFR - SWP.

Now that I have put more thought into it, you could go Asia - EUR - AFR - SWP (via Asia) - Asia and Asia - SWP - EUR (via Asia - AFR - Asia. You are heading westward technically but all but one seg is a legal backtrack. Now tell me what I am missing. It is late and I am going to bed.

OK, bed can wait...how about Asia - AFR - EUR - SWP (via Asia) - Asia. Consider the EUR - SWP the eastward direction and everything else a backtrack. I guess that logic class I took paid off.

There has got to be something wrong with each of those scenarios.

1. Europe-Asia-Pacific-x/Asia-Africa-Europe X
2. Europe-Asia-Africa-Pacific-NA-SA-Europe O
3. Asia-Pacific-Africa-Asia O?
4. Pacific-Asia-Africa-Pacific O?
5. Asia-Europe-Africa-ex/Asia-Pacific-Asia X
6. Asia-Pacific-x/Asia-Europe-Africa-Asia O
7. Asia-Africa-Europe-x/Asia-Pacific-Asia O

1. "TWO INTERCONTINENTAL DEPARTURES AND TWO INTERCONTINENTAL ARRIVALS ARE PERMITTED IN ASIA. ONE OF THE INTERCONTINENTAL ARRIVALS/DEPARTURES MUST BE A TRANSFER WITHOUT STOPOVER BETWEEN THE SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AND EUROPE" Therefore, you can't do Pacific-x/Asia-Africa

3. This you need to check with the airlines. If Pacific-Africa is not considered backtracking, then okay, if considered backtracking, then no.

4. Same as 3. If Africa-Pacific is not considered backtracking, then okay, if considered backtracking, then no.

5. You can't do Africa-ex/Asia-Pacific.

hsi.chang, guy betsy, et al., correct me if I'm wrong. Nothings definite until ticketed...

According to the Oneworld rules on American Airlines' farerules. Yes you can backtrack between Asia/Africa . BUT again, the ticketing airline has the final say, in this case, BRITISH AIRWAYS.

You may argue till you are blue in the face, but if BA says otherwise, you may have to abide by their rules since they are the airline issuing the outbound portion of the ticket.

I vaguely remember us talking about the "entering Asia twice rule" recently and thought they did away with the requirement to be going between SWP and EUR. I will have to find that thread and review it. Thanks for reminding me of that.

For #3 (Asia-Pacific-Africa-Asia) I look at the first and last leg as neutral in direction so it turns into a westward trip since the only non-neutral seg is heading west. At least that is how I would argue it with the airlines. Thank goodness for what you said earlier, "Nothings definite until ticketed."

In #4, I considered the last leg as the only one with a direction since the first two are "neutral" by my terms ( and hopefully the airlines too).

In #5, all but the Asia - EUR seg are neutral but the xfer Asia twice rule gets me.

Now here is a question for those of you who are experienced with these tickets. I have only had one RTW ticket and it was pretty straight forward for the most part. Let's say I had a ticket from JNB - SYD - BNE on QF and had already done my stops in Asia. If I walked up to CX on the day of departure and asked them to take the coupons and route me JNB - HKG - BNE, would they accept it?

Seeing that it's CX. NO.

They will say that you've done your asia already, and that you cannot backtrack.

Again each oneworld partner, or even each person reading the rules will interpret it their own way. I've dealth with CX, QF, BA, AA and once with CP. Each airline interpretted a certain routing their own way. In the end CP gave the most logical solution and I ticketed through them. Pity.

These rules can be confusing! I booked a OWE and decided insted of spending a quiet weekend in my hotel in HKG, I would fly upt o NRT on Satruday and back on Sunday, just to add the miles. Since I had a "stop" left in Asia, I thought it would be no problem. Well, it was not a problem but not for the reason I thought. Since I was staying less than 24 hours it didn't count! This according to AA. No if AA tarriffs agreed, I'll be set.

As a side note, the agent I spoke to said they are getting quite a few calls from BUD from people issuing/changing their tickets!

I guess we all appreciate a bargain.

pppsssstttttttt........ Don't tell the airlines about our secrets. They may try to close the loop-holes.

I would like to know if the recent price increases in Korea were caused by the number of tickets issued from that location (i.e. higher demand yields higher prices). If so, who bought those extra tickets, Koreans or non-Koreans?

I would also like to know whether or not the things that we take advantage of for the miles will be changed soon. How much of a loss do the airlines incur from people like us? If you did the maximum mileage route, would the airlines still make a profit. If I had to guess, I would say no. Consider a FC 6 Cont. RTW for $7000 US. 36 segs makes it $194 per seg. If you were to get 100k base miles, that would be 250k after 100% bonus from AA for Elite and 50% bonus for First Class. Per 1,000 miles earned, that would be $28. With the average length of each seg being 2777 miles, I have a feeling it cost the airlines more than $194 to wine, dine and fly me to my destination.

Compared to a mileage limit RTW like all other airlines, if you were to max out the mileage for a 1W RTW, it doesn't compare. I would think that the rules would change to come in line with the other RTWs. But I hope not.

It's been incredibly helpful reading all the discussion on this thread. I have a few questions I couldn't find a clear answer in previous posts:

A) Does someone know if OWE prices ex-BUD are to increase as of Nov. 1st?

B) If I book and buy (so have it ticketed and paid for) a OWE ticket now, how long is it valid, when do I last have to start my trip?

C) Can I really book my ticket/itinerary elsewhere in Europe (with BA) and go pick it up in BUD?

I'd really appreciate if someone who knows could comment, thanks.

salt wrote:
salt, buying tickets over the phone with your credit card and having them sent over by mail comply with SITI rules. However, it is a seperate question if the particular travel agent would provide you the service.

Guy Betsy wrote:
Well I know at least one 'eastern' Europe country that allows you to do so. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif Never hurts to ask... Let's just say Hungary has pretty much established business standards. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Chris, sorry for being particular, but I felt one of your postings may not have been as agreeable with some or many of us OWE flyers...

Some people do in fact "take advantage of for the miles" and use the Oneworld Explorer solely for racking up the miles and status. This itself, I have no opinion. I personally don't do mileage runs, and am not really interested in participating in the "most miles with OWE contest." Meanwhile, I do understand that some people indeed "fly to fly," and I have no intention to interfere with their travel planning.

However, not all of us consider the Oneworld Explorer fare as a mileage run product.

I would appreciate if you can take into consideration that many of us use this fare simply to "go" to places. The Oneworld Explorer fare is a round the world fare that allows travelers maximum flexibility for visiting multiple destinations making best use of the Oneworld alliance network. For us, the lenient routing rules are in our advantage for taking us to exotic places which we would otherwise never visit being far and expensive to visit.

Thanks for listening, and best regards.

silver

[This message has been edited by silver (edited 10-15-2000).]