SAA & Swissair
 

Just to confirm that BA Exec's are currently holding meetings (advanced stages) with SAA & Swissair, with a view to the two carriers joining OneWorld.

An announcement is due in two/four weeks.

Nick

This would be good (I think)--will give me more options for Africa.

Will this just be Swissair or the Qualiflyer Group which has over 9 different airlines?

However, I think SAA tends to be closer to the Stars rather than Oneworld

SAA has marketing and codeshare agreements with both OneWorld (CX, AA) and Star (LH, SK) in addition to Qualiflyer (OS, SR), so it is too difficult to say who is going with whom at this point.

one word - oneworld!

Celestar raises a good point though - just how strong an alliance is Qualiflyer, and how easy will it be for SR to get out on its own? (If that is what they wish).

All right who is taking bets on which way for SAA here? http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Assuming SR does join up with oneworld, when would the partnership go live? I have heard around the boards here that an announcement might happen mid-July. Would things get going right at the announcement time?

BlondeBomber: it would be unfair to bet - I know already the outcome ...(as posted above).

billm - it is unlikely that they would be able to go live with oneworld that quick. Apart from the staff training program there are several changes that have to made to the reservations systems. For an idea of possible timings consider that Finnair and Iberia will come online at the end of the year - both signed up shortly after oneworld was announced. Lan Chile is expected sometime Q1 2000 - they signed up in May this year.

I agree with Rudi. It's in Swissair's best interest to join Oneworld. Their interest in SAA is mainly as an investment. (How else can a small airline from a small country expand?) Their only competing route is ZUR/JNB. I never viewed the Qualifier airlines as having great synergies except for some SR/OS codeshares.

Oneworld would do alot for SR.

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speedbird001

Then the question comes , what about all the other airlines which SR has invested in? What do you think they want to be? part of Qualiflyer without Swissair? The biggest question is the the Qualiflyer Frequent Flyer Programme. If Swissair goes to OneWorld, then the OneWorld co-branding will apply to Qualiflyer members. The problem lies here - Qualiflyer only has 2 levels. Regular and Elite. (There is a level higher than elite but it's invitation only, so that rules out it being emerald). All the other Qualiflyer airlines like SN, OS,NG, TK, IM etc have branded together to market Qualiflyer as THEIR one and only frequent flyer programme. So if Sr joins OneWorld, wouldn't the 1w branding apply to them too?

I am not sure it is terribly relevant. For example, I can fly on Alaska or Midway or US Airways (Shuttle) and have it count toward my tier status on American. All of the Oneworld Airlines have other partners which enable you to accrue miles but are not necessarily part of Oneworld. It's the same with the Star Alliance.

If you look at Swissair, other then their investment in Sabena (they needed a leg into the EU) the other investments are passive. i.e. They just bought one of the large catering companies.

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speedbird001

So Rudi, perhaps I should try to get onto the (next) Swiss project... http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

What I would *really* like from both alliances is an ability to pool/transfer miles between ff programs - I have masses of BA miles, and about 20000 (? or less - I'm not certain...) SR miles, which would be of far more use to me in my BA account.

I fully second the motion to have the ability to pool or transfer miles between alliance partners. It just makes sense.

"... it just makes sence ...." FOR THE(IR) COSTUMERS.

since when do airlines think in favor (favour?) of their costumers?

baobab: "So Rudi, perhaps I should try to get onto the (next) Swiss project..."

We (Gisela and I) are so frustrated, we thought, we might be the reason for a next swiss project ... http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

[This message has been edited by Rudi (edited 07-01-1999).]

Rudi's right. Too often things get locked up in corporate BS, instead of focusing on what the consumer wants. Don't get me wrong, OW has it's benefits and I know things take time to iron out, but don't give me a smoke and mirror show either.

And while I'm griping, I can't help but to go back to the AA/BA rule of not being able to accumulate miles on those transatlantic flights. Yes, AA may have the Fed on their heels, but how about at least giving us the choice to earn AA or BA miles on a transatlantic flt if the city is served by only one carrier (AA or BA), such as PHL-LHR is only served twice daily by BA. Now why shouldn't I be able to get AA miles for that flt, AA doesn't even serve that city-pair non-stop anymore. (When they did, it was only for a few months.) OK, I'm done for now. http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I believe the BA/AA trans-Atlantic mileage situation was a Fed ruling, to placate both the British and US aviation agencies while they try and work out the ongoing alliance problems.

When I first read about Oneworld, it sounded like you would be able to transfer miles easily, i.e. use my BA miles to upgrade on domestic AA flights. Unfortunately, that was not the case.

Any other thoughts???

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speedbird001

I thought the obnoxious might of the European Commission was thrown in as well? In particular they were insisting that BA gave up a lot of landing slots at LHR and they weren't prepared to do it. Presumably the didn't want Virgin to get their hands on them. The details are sketchy in my mind but I would be surprised if it was a unilateral regulatory decision.

speedbird -- BA and AA might have agreed to not let their ff's choose BA or AA mileage on transatlantic flts to "please" the Fed's and EC/Karl, but they don't need any approval to simply award mileage as such. They do need approval to code-share.

Well, guess what, the UK just cancelled the US/UK talks again scheduled for July 6. I'll post the press rls "In the News"

[This message has been edited by burkey (edited 07-01-1999).]

Speedbird001 - You missed my point. US AIrways, Midway and Alaska Airlines all have their own frequent flyer programme. Qualiflyer is one frequent programme for ALL the Qualiflyer group of airlines. Austrian's ff is Qualiflyer. Sabena's ff is Qualiflyer. Turkish Airways' ff is Qualiflyer. AOM's ff is Qualiflyer. So if SR branches off to oneworld, the emerald, sapphire, and ruby branding will appear on the Qualiflyer cards. So does that mean that other airline's members should not have elite status since their airline has not in theory joined oneworld?

Any Qualflyer member here care to comment?

Celestar. I don't see the situation you describe either happening or being a problem. Clearly, Qualiflyer elite staus can not become Oneworld status just because a single Qualiflyer airline joins the alliance. Accordingly, if SR wish to join Oneworld they would have to leave Qualiflyer and relaunch their own ff program. Airlines do relaunch their ff programs occasionally after all (DL, TW, etc.). Even then, they could stay in a single program with any other Qualiflyer airlines who join OW at the same time.

I guess the new program would work along the lines of: New members acquire and redeem miles in the "New SR program" only. Members with miles in both have the choice to redeem them under the "New" chart or the Qualiflyer chart when SR leave. Once a member has spent his Qualiflyer miles he may only use the "new" chart. Elite status would be determined over a transitional year, turning two levels in to three (rather like CO's elite reorganisation last year, but better managed). Even if SR did formally leave Qualiflyer, they wouldn't have to end mileage accrual or redemption with their current partners (at least for a while).

This may be a thorny issue for SR and may introduce legal and marketing difficulties, but it is a price that must be payed for joining a superior, more formal alliance. Such an alliance must have revenue advantages for the airline and hopefully service advantages for the customers. SR and Qualifyer will therefore just have to deal with it.

James

james: Qualiflyer IS Swissair (and a little bit of Austrian and others).

A newspaper report in Singapore says that Swissair will not join oneworld. Does Rudi or Merry have any news on this?

be assured, when ever I get unconfidential news, I will publish them here without delay.

Rudi, I don't really understand your remark 'Qualiflyer IS Swissair'. Are you saying that if SR joins Oneworld, they would keep Qualiflyer and kick the others out? Please can you elaborate? SR may be the dominant partner but there are another 8(?) Qualiflyer airlines involved, however small.

the Qualiflyer-program would just have no future, if SR (the founder and "owner" and Sabena) would leave it.

OK, thank you Rudi. Given that, what do you thnk is the answer to Celestar's question? If you can't answer that for reasons of confidentiality, does Swissair have any specific reason or obligation why it should not leave Qualiflyer?

I do thank you for your patience - I am just trying to come to terms with this complex and interesting issue.

James



[This message has been edited by james (edited 07-05-1999).]

If Swissair were to leave Qualflyer and to set up it's own programme, it would be the equivalent of telling all, say, members of BA's Executive Programme that BA is splitting up the frequent flyer programme. And members who fly on their franchaise airlines, GB Airways, Deutsch BA, etc won't have a frequent flyer anymore because the parent company is 'withdrawing' the club. Members who fly only on Deutsch BA would be short changed, don't you think?

But hey guys, I was only bringing up the subject of "WHAT IF" Swissair joins oneWorld. I guess we'll just have to see when the time actually comes.

james, I did post this, some days ago, under the news. May be it makes sense to repost it here - and I hope all the others, who did read it already will apologize (for once). Thank you.

Rudi Member posted 07-02-1999 08:44 AM
source: AEA Association of European Airlines and my personal judgment); you may notice that under "potential" some airlines are listed (talking) more than with one alliance.

Actual financial engagements of Swissair:
Crossair 69.01%
Delta Air Lines Inc. 4.6%
Singapore Airlines 0.62%
Sabena SA 49.5%
Volare SA 34%
Air Europe SpA 45%
Air Littoral 49%
Austrian Airlines 10%
Ukraine International Airline 5.6%
South African Airways 20% (plus an option for further 10%)
Cargolux 33.7%
LTU Group GmbH 49.9%

StarAlliance
************
Air Canada
Ansett Australia
Lufthansa
SAS Scandinavian Airlines
Thai Airways
United Airlines
Varig Brasil
designated: ANA All Nippon Airways
designated: Singapore Airlines
potential: Philippine Airlines
potential: Air Mexicana
potential: Air China
potential: LOT Polish Airlines
potential: CSA Czech Airlines
potential: British Midland
not impossible: Delta Air Lines

OneWorld
*********
American Airlines
British Airways
Canadian Airlines
Cathay Pacific
Finnair
Iberia
Qantas
potential: Japan Airlines
potential: Aerolinas Argentinas
potential: Emirates
potential: LAN Chile
potential: LOT Polish Airlines
potential: Deutsche BA
potential: Air Liberté
potential: Swissair
potential: Sabena

WINGS
*****
Northwest Airlines
Continental Airlines
KLM Royal Dutch Airlines
Eurowings
Alitalia
KLM UK

Atlantic Excellence
*******************
Delta Air Lines
Swissair
Sabena
Austrian Airlines
Qualiflyer Group
potential: Air France
potential: South African Airways
potential: Malaysia Airlines
potential: Air China
potential: Air India

another DELTA "option"
**********************
Air France
Delta Air Lines
Continental Airlines
potential: several smaller airlines (may be out of the Qualiflyer-Group: first priority: Austrian).
in acutal talks: British Midland

Rudi -- very interesting, looks like we will have fun times ahead. Just a minor correction, Deutsche BA and Air Liberté are already part of oneworld as they are endorsed partners of BA. (Deutsche BA is even showing the oneworld logo on their web site, although Aire Liberté is not). Lan Chile has announced membership, to take effect sometime early 2000.

Celestar 340 makes a good point.
The real question is.....are the economics favorable enough for SR to join Oneworld with or without its existing partners?

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speedbird001

Rudi and Celestar - thank you for your most recent posts and for putting the Qulaiflyer position in to context. I think I have grasped the problem now! Rudi's post in 'In the News' about the relationship between DL and SR is also very helpful for anyone who has not seen it.

It is certainly a very interesting situation.. and although it is often more fun speculating about these things I fear we must wait and see what actually happens now. It seems that DL and SR (and through them, qualiflyer) are the keys to a lot of what will happen in the remianing formation and crystallization of the alliances. Once the four basic alliances have formed and stabilized, it will be very interesting to see what happens to the remaining independents.

James