Weight restriction and the bump
May 5, 2009, 2:42 pm
#1
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Weight restriction and the bump
I was on a NWA flight PHL to MEM and they had this thing called Weight restriction asking for volunteers.. for the $300 voucher etc.
What is a weight restriction on an aircraft when we all have reservations?
I was the fourth one to volunteer and take a later flight even though I waited 6 1/2 hrs at the airport.
When it was time to board, they said they still needed six volunteers. They started boarding the flight and a lady about maybe 6 people from the back literally had the door shut in her face. She was pissed off.
Now people who don't volunteer. Do they get any compensation for not getting on or do they get nothing since NWA asked for volunteers and they refused. How does that work?
(If this is in the wrong forum moderator please move to correct forum).
What is a weight restriction on an aircraft when we all have reservations?
I was the fourth one to volunteer and take a later flight even though I waited 6 1/2 hrs at the airport.
When it was time to board, they said they still needed six volunteers. They started boarding the flight and a lady about maybe 6 people from the back literally had the door shut in her face. She was pissed off.
Now people who don't volunteer. Do they get any compensation for not getting on or do they get nothing since NWA asked for volunteers and they refused. How does that work?
(If this is in the wrong forum moderator please move to correct forum).
May 5, 2009, 2:48 pm
#2
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Weight restrictions normally come into play in two scenarios: 1) the air is too hot (this happens a lot in say PSP); 2) there's more cargo than anticipated on the flight.
Planes can only take off with a certain weight - regardless of how many passengers or how much cargo are on the flight. The max takeoff weight is determined by a many factors including weather, temperature of the air, runway in use, etc.
Cargo tends to be very lucrative for airlines and the airlines are happy to pay to bump people off of a flight to ensure the cargo gets to its destination. In this case, whether it's cargo or not, your plane had too much weight and needed 10 people or so off the plane.
The airline will always solicit volunteers first. If enough people do not volunteer then the airline will do an IDB (Involuntary Denied Boarding). This means that if you are one of the last people trying to get on the plane, you ain't gettin' on. Sounds like that is what happened to the lady who had the door shut in her face.
IDB is definitely compensated as well - generally more loosely than the VDB (voluntary denied boarding). In an IDB situation you can have the airline refund your ticket without question. VDB generally can't do that. Generally speaking, the IDB person will receive the same compensation that the VDB person received; but that's not always the case.
-RM
Planes can only take off with a certain weight - regardless of how many passengers or how much cargo are on the flight. The max takeoff weight is determined by a many factors including weather, temperature of the air, runway in use, etc.
Cargo tends to be very lucrative for airlines and the airlines are happy to pay to bump people off of a flight to ensure the cargo gets to its destination. In this case, whether it's cargo or not, your plane had too much weight and needed 10 people or so off the plane.
The airline will always solicit volunteers first. If enough people do not volunteer then the airline will do an IDB (Involuntary Denied Boarding). This means that if you are one of the last people trying to get on the plane, you ain't gettin' on. Sounds like that is what happened to the lady who had the door shut in her face.
IDB is definitely compensated as well - generally more loosely than the VDB (voluntary denied boarding). In an IDB situation you can have the airline refund your ticket without question. VDB generally can't do that. Generally speaking, the IDB person will receive the same compensation that the VDB person received; but that's not always the case.
-RM
May 5, 2009, 3:18 pm
#3
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IDB is definitely compensated as well - generally more loosely than the VDB (voluntary denied boarding). In an IDB situation you can have the airline refund your ticket without question. VDB generally can't do that. Generally speaking, the IDB person will receive the same compensation that the VDB person received; but that's not always the case.
COMPENSATION FOR INVOLUNTARY DENIED BOARDING
IN ADDITION TO PROVIDING TRANSPORTATION AS DESCRIBED IN
PARAGRAPH D) ABOVE, WHEN THE PASSENGER WHO IS DELAYED HAS
NOT VOLUNTARILY RELINQUISHED CONFIRMED RESERVED SPACE IN
ACCORDANCE WITH PROVISIONS IN PARAGRAPH B) ABOVE, NW WILL
COMPENSATE THE DELAYED PASSENGER FOR NW'S FAILURE TO
PROVIDE CONFIRMED SPACE. COMPENSATION WILL BE MADE IN
ACCORDANCE WITH THE PROVISIONS BELOW.
B) THE NW FLIGHT FOR WHICH THE PASSENGER HOLDS
CONFIRMED RESERVED SPACE MUST BE UNABLE TO
ACCOMMODATE THE PASSENGER AND DEPARTS WITHOUT THEM.
EXCEPTION 1: THE PASSENGER WILL NOT BE ELIGIBLE
FOR COMPENSATION IF THE NW FLIGHT ON
WHICH THEY HOLD CONFIRMED RESERVED SPACE IS UNABLE TO ACCOMMODATE THEM
BECAUSE OF SUBSTITUTION OF EQUIPMENT
OF LESSER CAPACITY DUE TO OPERATIONAL
OR SAFETY REASONS.
IN ADDITION TO PROVIDING TRANSPORTATION AS DESCRIBED IN
PARAGRAPH D) ABOVE, WHEN THE PASSENGER WHO IS DELAYED HAS
NOT VOLUNTARILY RELINQUISHED CONFIRMED RESERVED SPACE IN
ACCORDANCE WITH PROVISIONS IN PARAGRAPH B) ABOVE, NW WILL
COMPENSATE THE DELAYED PASSENGER FOR NW'S FAILURE TO
PROVIDE CONFIRMED SPACE. COMPENSATION WILL BE MADE IN
ACCORDANCE WITH THE PROVISIONS BELOW.
B) THE NW FLIGHT FOR WHICH THE PASSENGER HOLDS
CONFIRMED RESERVED SPACE MUST BE UNABLE TO
ACCOMMODATE THE PASSENGER AND DEPARTS WITHOUT THEM.
EXCEPTION 1: THE PASSENGER WILL NOT BE ELIGIBLE
FOR COMPENSATION IF THE NW FLIGHT ON
WHICH THEY HOLD CONFIRMED RESERVED SPACE IS UNABLE TO ACCOMMODATE THEM
BECAUSE OF SUBSTITUTION OF EQUIPMENT
OF LESSER CAPACITY DUE TO OPERATIONAL
OR SAFETY REASONS.
In this particular case, there's no aircraft being substituted, just seats being blocked for weight restrictions, so my reading of it would be that IDB compensation would apply. Funny how they excluded aircraft swaps but not weight balance bumps.
May 5, 2009, 3:43 pm
#4
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so i still wonder since i fell asleep at the gate whether the lady got anything... or not.. for IDB so its the airlines game essentially right volunteer and get rewarded dont volunteer and risk getting zero....
May 5, 2009, 3:47 pm
#5
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AMOUNT OF COMPENSATION
SUBJECT TO THE PROVISIONS OF PARAGRAPH E)1) ABOVE, NW
WILL TENDER LIQUIDATED DAMAGES IN THE AMOUNT OF 200% OF
THE VALUE OF THE PASSENGER'S REMAINING FLIGHT COUPON(S)
(MAXIMUM USD 800.00) TO THE PASSENGER'S NEXT STOPOVER
OR IF NONE, TO THE PASSENGER'S DESTINATION. HOWEVER,
THE COMPENSATION SHALL BE 50% OF THE AMOUNT DESCRIBED
ABOVE (BUT NOT MORE THAN USD 400.00) IF NW ARRANGES FOR
COMPARABLE AIR TRANSPORTATION, (OR FOR OTHER
TRANSPORTATION THAT IS ACCEPTED AND USED BY THE
PASSENGER) WHICH, AT THE TIME EITHER ARRANGEMENT IS
MADE, IS PLANNED TO ARRIVE AT THE AIRPORT OF THE
PASSENGER'S NEXT STOPOVER OR, IF NONE, AT THE AIRPORT
OF THE PASSENGER'S DESTINATION:
A) LATER THAN 1 HR. BUT NOT MORE THAN 2 HR. AFTER THE
PLANNED ARRIVAL (IN THE CASE OF INTERSTATE
TRANSPORTATION);
B) LATER THAN 1 HR. BUT NOT MORE THAN 4 HR. AFTER THE
PLANNED ARRIVAL (IN THE CASE OF FOREIGN
TRANSPORTATION); AT THE AIRPORT OF THE PASSENGER'S
NEXT POINT OF STOPOVER OR, IF THERE IS NO NEXT POINT
OF STOPOVER, AT THE AIRPORT OF THE PASSENGER'S
DESTINATION OF THE FLIGHT ON WHICH THE PASSENGER
HOLDS A CONFIRMED RESERVATION.
NOTE 1: IF THE OFFER OF COMPENSATION IS MADE BY NW AND
ACCEPTED BY THE PASSENGER, SUCH PAYMENT WILL
CONSTITUTE FULL COMPENSATION FOR ALL ACTUAL OR
ANTICIPATORY DAMAGES INCURRED OR TO BE
INCURRED BY THE PASSENGER AS A RESULT OF NW'S
FAILURE TO PROVIDE THE PASSENGER'S CONFIRMED
RESERVED SPACE.
NOTE 2: AT THE PASSENGER'S OPTION (NW'S OPTION IN THE
CASE OF VOLUNTARY DENIED BOARDING), NW MAY
COMPENSATE THE PASSENGER WITH CREDIT VALID FOR
TRANSPORTATION ON NW IN LIEU OF MONETARY
COMPENSATION. THE OFFER OF TRANSPORTATION
WILL BE EQUAL TO OR GREATER THAN THE MONETARY
COMPENSATION DUE. THE CREDIT VOUCHER IS
NONTRANSFERABLE, HAS NO REFUND VALUE, AND WILL
NOT BE REISSUED. THE CREDIT VOUCHER WILL BE
VALID FOR 365 DAYS FROM THE DATE OF ISSUANCE.
NOTE 3: PASSENGERS OFFERED SUCH COMPENSATION WILL NOT
BE PROVIDED WITH THE AMENITIES AND SERVICES
OFFERED UNDER THE PROVISIONS OF RULE 240 E).
EXCEPTION: COMPENSATION FOR PASSENGERS TRAVELING ON
WORLDPERK AWARDS SHALL BE PAID IN
TRANSPORTATION CREDIT VOUCHERS ONLY IN THE
AMOUNT OF THE LAST AMOUNT OFFERED TO
PASSENGERS UNDER RULE 245(B)(1).
COMPENSATION FOR OTHER FREE OR REDUCED FARE
TRANSPORTATION SHALL BE DETERMINED IN
ACCORDANCE WITH THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS
APPLICABLE TO SUCH TRANSPORTATION.
SUBJECT TO THE PROVISIONS OF PARAGRAPH E)1) ABOVE, NW
WILL TENDER LIQUIDATED DAMAGES IN THE AMOUNT OF 200% OF
THE VALUE OF THE PASSENGER'S REMAINING FLIGHT COUPON(S)
(MAXIMUM USD 800.00) TO THE PASSENGER'S NEXT STOPOVER
OR IF NONE, TO THE PASSENGER'S DESTINATION. HOWEVER,
THE COMPENSATION SHALL BE 50% OF THE AMOUNT DESCRIBED
ABOVE (BUT NOT MORE THAN USD 400.00) IF NW ARRANGES FOR
COMPARABLE AIR TRANSPORTATION, (OR FOR OTHER
TRANSPORTATION THAT IS ACCEPTED AND USED BY THE
PASSENGER) WHICH, AT THE TIME EITHER ARRANGEMENT IS
MADE, IS PLANNED TO ARRIVE AT THE AIRPORT OF THE
PASSENGER'S NEXT STOPOVER OR, IF NONE, AT THE AIRPORT
OF THE PASSENGER'S DESTINATION:
A) LATER THAN 1 HR. BUT NOT MORE THAN 2 HR. AFTER THE
PLANNED ARRIVAL (IN THE CASE OF INTERSTATE
TRANSPORTATION);
B) LATER THAN 1 HR. BUT NOT MORE THAN 4 HR. AFTER THE
PLANNED ARRIVAL (IN THE CASE OF FOREIGN
TRANSPORTATION); AT THE AIRPORT OF THE PASSENGER'S
NEXT POINT OF STOPOVER OR, IF THERE IS NO NEXT POINT
OF STOPOVER, AT THE AIRPORT OF THE PASSENGER'S
DESTINATION OF THE FLIGHT ON WHICH THE PASSENGER
HOLDS A CONFIRMED RESERVATION.
NOTE 1: IF THE OFFER OF COMPENSATION IS MADE BY NW AND
ACCEPTED BY THE PASSENGER, SUCH PAYMENT WILL
CONSTITUTE FULL COMPENSATION FOR ALL ACTUAL OR
ANTICIPATORY DAMAGES INCURRED OR TO BE
INCURRED BY THE PASSENGER AS A RESULT OF NW'S
FAILURE TO PROVIDE THE PASSENGER'S CONFIRMED
RESERVED SPACE.
NOTE 2: AT THE PASSENGER'S OPTION (NW'S OPTION IN THE
CASE OF VOLUNTARY DENIED BOARDING), NW MAY
COMPENSATE THE PASSENGER WITH CREDIT VALID FOR
TRANSPORTATION ON NW IN LIEU OF MONETARY
COMPENSATION. THE OFFER OF TRANSPORTATION
WILL BE EQUAL TO OR GREATER THAN THE MONETARY
COMPENSATION DUE. THE CREDIT VOUCHER IS
NONTRANSFERABLE, HAS NO REFUND VALUE, AND WILL
NOT BE REISSUED. THE CREDIT VOUCHER WILL BE
VALID FOR 365 DAYS FROM THE DATE OF ISSUANCE.
NOTE 3: PASSENGERS OFFERED SUCH COMPENSATION WILL NOT
BE PROVIDED WITH THE AMENITIES AND SERVICES
OFFERED UNDER THE PROVISIONS OF RULE 240 E).
EXCEPTION: COMPENSATION FOR PASSENGERS TRAVELING ON
WORLDPERK AWARDS SHALL BE PAID IN
TRANSPORTATION CREDIT VOUCHERS ONLY IN THE
AMOUNT OF THE LAST AMOUNT OFFERED TO
PASSENGERS UNDER RULE 245(B)(1).
COMPENSATION FOR OTHER FREE OR REDUCED FARE
TRANSPORTATION SHALL BE DETERMINED IN
ACCORDANCE WITH THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS
APPLICABLE TO SUCH TRANSPORTATION.
May 5, 2009, 5:57 pm
#6
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The Federal requirement for compensation due to bumping for weight and balance is different (excepted?) for aircraft with 60 or fewer seats, so was the OP scheduled on a DC-9 or CRJ departure? Another reason to avoid 50-seat CRJs - and it's a long list for me.
May 6, 2009, 9:27 am
#8
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it was a delta plane
It was a delta plane and it was not a little plane.. my rez was with nw though 650a to memphis
May 6, 2009, 9:44 am
#9
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The new rule is 30 or fewer seats, so this wouldn't come into play.
If the airline must substitute a smaller plane for the one it originally planned to use, the carrier isn't required to pay people who are bumped as a result.In addition, on flights using aircraft with 30 through 60 passenger seats, compensation is not required if you were bumped due to safety-related aircraft weight or balance constraints.
May 6, 2009, 2:22 pm
#10
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I was flying last year from ATL/MSP (I think) NW DC-9. They said the flight was overbooked. I asked about it - was told weight restricted with the following explanation. There's bad weather in the MSP area. They have to take on extra fuel in case they get in the vicinity of MSP and have to circle for a while, so, they have to bump people off due to the weight of the extra fuel. I'm just about always willing to volunteer, so, they did my $300 stuff - meals - rerouting, etc. Then, the GA got on the PA system and said - We're still looking for 16 more volunteers!! O M G!! I told them that I wouldn't want their job!!
On a side note, I was on the way to SFO. They told me that all of the DL flights were full except the one that arrives at midnight, which would have given me like 7 hours at ATL. I told the GA I'd be right back. I called the Platinum Hotline and asked the agent if they could find me 1 seat from ATL to SFOish on ANY crazy routing. They found me one seat ATL/SEA - DL and SEA/OAK - AS - leaving in 35 minutes. I ran back to the counter and they did it!! I then flew from D concourse to T - and made the flight. When I got into SEA, I found an earlier flight to SFO and they let me go stand-by!! 3 Cheers again and again for the Elite folks in Chisolm!!
Anyway, I just thought you'd like to hear another tidbit about overbooking due to weight restriction.
On a side note, I was on the way to SFO. They told me that all of the DL flights were full except the one that arrives at midnight, which would have given me like 7 hours at ATL. I told the GA I'd be right back. I called the Platinum Hotline and asked the agent if they could find me 1 seat from ATL to SFOish on ANY crazy routing. They found me one seat ATL/SEA - DL and SEA/OAK - AS - leaving in 35 minutes. I ran back to the counter and they did it!! I then flew from D concourse to T - and made the flight. When I got into SEA, I found an earlier flight to SFO and they let me go stand-by!! 3 Cheers again and again for the Elite folks in Chisolm!!
Anyway, I just thought you'd like to hear another tidbit about overbooking due to weight restriction.
May 6, 2009, 2:44 pm
#11
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Actually that's incorrect. Whether one gets an IDB compensation depends on the reason. From nwa's CoC:
(bold/underline/italics emphasis mine) IIRC, this is a standard exception to the IDB compensation rule on almost all airlines. So one cannot always expect a IDB compensation. You have to look at why you're being bumped.
In this particular case, there's no aircraft being substituted, just seats being blocked for weight restrictions, so my reading of it would be that IDB compensation would apply. Funny how they excluded aircraft swaps but not weight balance bumps.
(bold/underline/italics emphasis mine) IIRC, this is a standard exception to the IDB compensation rule on almost all airlines. So one cannot always expect a IDB compensation. You have to look at why you're being bumped.
In this particular case, there's no aircraft being substituted, just seats being blocked for weight restrictions, so my reading of it would be that IDB compensation would apply. Funny how they excluded aircraft swaps but not weight balance bumps.
-RM
May 6, 2009, 2:58 pm
#12
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Understood. Reason I pointed it out was because I have had friends denied IDB because of the change in aircraft reason.
May 6, 2009, 3:49 pm
#13
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Do DC-9's get weight restricted often? I've only heard of that with RJ's.
May 13, 2009, 9:14 pm
#14
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I had something similar on a DC-10 from AMS-MSP a few years ago. In this situation, no one was bumped, but based on the cargo load, there were a lot of empty seats on the plane. No one was allowed to move to different seats until after we were in the air. Apparently, the cargo was known well in-advance, so the PAX weight distribution was controlled via the seat-map.
May 14, 2009, 9:45 am
#15
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Posts: 2,576
Every airplane is prone to being weight restricted. It's not an RJ vs. mainline a/c thing. Airline operations are very fluid operations. A runway closure at a certain airport for construction, in perfect weather can render a flight weight restricted. There are thousands of reasons that can drive this very common practice.