Delta looking to convert NW's 787 orders into 777s
#31
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The DC9 replacement process, already started by NW (CR9's and Embraers), is likely to continue and maybe (hopefully) extend to the MD fleet.
The A319s, A320s and older 737s are a different story. Not sure where that is going. DL has been an "all Boeing" airline traditionally, so I doubt they'll be looking at Airbus, but you never know.
I'm just looking forward to DL retiring the 767s (which I very much dislike), but that's many years away. Maybe they will be replaced with 787's and DL is just delaying some of them in favor or 777s which may make more immediate sense. (The jumbos are here to stay, but for how long, really?)
The A319s, A320s and older 737s are a different story. Not sure where that is going. DL has been an "all Boeing" airline traditionally, so I doubt they'll be looking at Airbus, but you never know.
I'm just looking forward to DL retiring the 767s (which I very much dislike), but that's many years away. Maybe they will be replaced with 787's and DL is just delaying some of them in favor or 777s which may make more immediate sense. (The jumbos are here to stay, but for how long, really?)
#33
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#34
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Yes ... three years after the launch, Boeing has a grand total of 20 orders from a single commercial airline. A roaring success, the 747-8, isn't it? Admittedly there are some 80 orders for the freighter, but little interest from the airlines.
#35
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Hence the "many years down the road".
Are you offering to pay?
Otherwise I wouldn't expect much change. Delta will rightfully focus on revamping its international fleet--that's where the high yields are, even if doing so means displeasing the numerous frequent flyers who are stuck with poor short-haul birds. As domestic capacity gets cut, the DC-9s then MD-80s will go. Maybe Delta will look into bringing some of NW's 319s/320s out of storage, but I'm not familiar with the lease rates.
Otherwise I wouldn't expect much change. Delta will rightfully focus on revamping its international fleet--that's where the high yields are, even if doing so means displeasing the numerous frequent flyers who are stuck with poor short-haul birds. As domestic capacity gets cut, the DC-9s then MD-80s will go. Maybe Delta will look into bringing some of NW's 319s/320s out of storage, but I'm not familiar with the lease rates.
#36
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Actually, DL was traditionally a Douglas airline. The 767 was the first real direct purchase from Boeing until the 737-800.
#37
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I'm a bit suprised DL didn't grab a couple of the Jet Airways 773ERs that went on sale. Both use GE90s. One good thing about the LR means MORE DL f/a crews. I'm pleased!! ^
Last edited by luvsbucks; Dec 1, 2008 at 8:58 pm
#38
Join Date: Dec 2004
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777 Is Better If 787 Goes 9 Across In Coach
The 777 will be a far more comfortable aircraft if DL is putting 9 across in the 787 coach section like most airlines are:
http://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/2006/0..._crammi_1.html
The 777 is 15-16 inches wider inside than the 787, so the 787 will be a tight squeeze, unless DL goes with 10 across in any new 777s like Air France and KLM are doing.
http://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/2006/0..._crammi_1.html
The 777 is 15-16 inches wider inside than the 787, so the 787 will be a tight squeeze, unless DL goes with 10 across in any new 777s like Air France and KLM are doing.
#39
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How to make the 787 a desirable plane to fly in. Not.
#40
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Like others have mentioned, this is not that surprising of a development. The switch in the order isn't an indication that the 787 was a bad order from NW. It just isn't the right order for the new DL/NW. The few routes where the 787-8 is needed can be served in the meantime by the 77L, and the other routes intended to be served by the 787-8 can be flown by either the 767, 77E, A332 or A333.
Not too many people realize that the -9 will have a longer range, more passengers, and a better fuel burn ratio, all at the same time, and comes only a few years later (well, they say only a few years later.) Size-wise, it is about the same as the A330-200, maybe a bit larger. And as we can see by the current shortage of A330s and especially the -200 version across the Pacific, the -9 is currently what is needed for the DL fleet. Even American ordered the 787-9, not the -8.
Maybe later the -8 will also be ordered in numbers to replace thinner 767 transatlantic routes. But not right now. If Delta gets a better deal by switching to the 77L right now and -9s down the road, then it's a good move in my books.
Not too many people realize that the -9 will have a longer range, more passengers, and a better fuel burn ratio, all at the same time, and comes only a few years later (well, they say only a few years later.) Size-wise, it is about the same as the A330-200, maybe a bit larger. And as we can see by the current shortage of A330s and especially the -200 version across the Pacific, the -9 is currently what is needed for the DL fleet. Even American ordered the 787-9, not the -8.
Maybe later the -8 will also be ordered in numbers to replace thinner 767 transatlantic routes. But not right now. If Delta gets a better deal by switching to the 77L right now and -9s down the road, then it's a good move in my books.
#41
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Somewhat covered in the threads already is that the 787 was meant to fit a new business model - allowing for small loads for long range pax allowing more point-to-point flights vs the larger aircraft relying on the hub-spoke model. It will be interesting to note that this isn't simply an airplane swap, but perhaps a business model shift now that DL has taken over NW.
Also to note, the 787 was supposed to have a lot more benefits to passengers (better windows, higher humidity levels etc). Not sure if the 777 will have these.
Also to note, the 787 was supposed to have a lot more benefits to passengers (better windows, higher humidity levels etc). Not sure if the 777 will have these.
#42
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Aside from any cost savings, waiting also offers some flexibility. Demand is likely to soften to the point that DL may want to contract the fleet, at least temporarily, which would present a good opportunity to retire some of the least efficient planes, without any concern about immediate replacements. If demand doesn't lead DL to contract, then I would think the next jump in fuel costs might.
Regardless, I don't think the short-haul market is much of a growth market and margins, even in times of cheap fuel and high demand, are likely to be continually pressured by the competition. To that end, I would think they may not replace all of the retired aircraft and that the 368 number might be high by as much as 50%.
#43
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For the record, I'm neutral on this issue-just curious how the numbers would work out.
I'm still wondering if Boeing will come up with an LR version of the 777-300. Probably basically an 777-300ER with a yet bigger engine and more gas tanks.
Last edited by stupidhead; Dec 2, 2008 at 2:52 am
#44
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I would think they may wait. With fuel prices relatively low, the pressure to take on capital or lease costs to save on fuel costs is lessened. They should only replace those planes where the combined annual capital/lease, fuel, and maintenance costs of the existing planes would be greater than the planes they would buy, accounting for cash flow considerations, as well.
#45
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Originally Posted by tomh
Both the 737 and A320 replacements are about 10 years away.
10 years from now, the DC-9s will be 40 years old or so, requiring ever increasing levels of maintenance, and offering customer comfort (especially in Y) below market expectations.
Not to mention that the 737 and A-320 replacements might well be too big to replace the DC-9/MD-80 fleet -- the smallest current 737 have some 140 seats. And at that size the 737/A320 are simply not as efficient as the E-Jets and CSeries.
I have no inside knowledge of what DL's aircraft strategy is, though. But maybe you do?
Oh, you and I will pay. It's called an "airfare".