DTW-LGW Terminated - 1/11/09

 
Old Nov 18, 08, 4:56 pm
  #16  
 
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>>>>Why do airlines hate LGW so much? Or what is it about LHR that they love?

Hot spots are all about volume, and numbers. I like LGW too, though it can be sparser for connections.

If you're going to London, LGW is really nice (a not-hot-spot). If, however, you are connecting through London to far flung destinations, then LHR, as party places go, is, like, Ibiza.
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Old Nov 18, 08, 5:27 pm
  #17  
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Originally Posted by SchmutzigMSP View Post
With all due respect to the DL faithful, I think DTW-KIX and SEA-LHR are much more notable market eliminations than JFK-PSA...
Why?
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Old Nov 18, 08, 5:58 pm
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Originally Posted by 3Cforme View Post
JFK-Pisa lasted longer than SEA-LHR, and at least had the logic of starting or ending in a hub. Maybe SEA-LHR will be restarted as a 767-300ER route?
Rumors were that JFK-PSA had financial protection built-in to prevent DL from taking a loss. I can't substantiate it, but can anyone factually debunk it? Also, the 4x weekly service didn't hurt in those regards, either. The logic behind NW's entry seems clear: the business travel would support it. But the SEA-LHR cut was most likely a decision made by the incoming DL staff who figured the aircraft/slots to be used in a more profitable way. Perhaps they felt that a DL hub - LHR route addition would be more profitable. That is to say, the SEA-LHR market isn't necessarily bad (BA seems to do OK), but perhaps upon officially gaining that route, DL felt it could be utilized better elsewhere and made the cut.
Originally Posted by sxf24 View Post
Why?
Why not?

To use a favored phrase here, the "sheer number" of seats eliminated on the NW-operated routes dwarfs the number on the eliminated DL-route. The elimination of two daily-serviced business markets is more notable than the elimination of one leisure market operated 4x weekly.

Last edited by SchmutzigMSP; Nov 18, 08 at 6:06 pm
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Old Nov 18, 08, 6:08 pm
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Originally Posted by RobOnLI View Post
Sorry, nope. CO has axed all LGW service as well.

-RM
Not true. CO still runs CLE-LGW seasonally and has said it plans to resume the route next spring (already for sale).

Originally Posted by davetravels View Post
I could be wrong, but, I don't ever remember DTW/CDG being seasonal before, was it? I feel fairly certain that I've taken it a number of times in the winter! So, I guess the bean counters at DL are warming up their hatchets!!
The NWA flight was year-round, but the AF flight went down to 5x during the holidays and then 3x in late winter (Feb-Mar). Now, AF will be daily starting in early Feb... so, in effect, DTW goes from 11x/week to 7x/week for 60-days during off-peak season. Not too shabby at all.
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Old Nov 18, 08, 6:19 pm
  #20  
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Originally Posted by SchmutzigMSP View Post
Why not?

To use a favored phrase here, the "sheer number" of seats eliminated on the NW-operated routes dwarfs the number on the eliminated DL-route. The elimination of two daily-serviced business markets is more notable than the elimination of one leisure market operated 4x weekly.
Maybe the cancellations shows a general incompetence of the route planners in MSP.
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Old Nov 18, 08, 6:39 pm
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Originally Posted by sxf24 View Post
Maybe the cancellations shows a general incompetence of the route planners in MSP.
If the "cancellations shows [sic]" a "general incompetence" of the NW route planners, couldn't the same be said for any other airline's route planners after a route has been canceled? Would NW somehow be unique in this regard?

Routes get canceled. For all airlines. My point was the NW cancellations were more notable than the DL cancellation (refer to my post that you quoted if you forgot what exactly I said). Don't make this into something it isn't...
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Old Nov 18, 08, 7:55 pm
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Originally Posted by SchmutzigMSP View Post
If the "cancellations shows [sic]" a "general incompetence" of the NW route planners, couldn't the same be said for any other airline's route planners after a route has been canceled? Would NW somehow be unique in this regard?

Routes get canceled. For all airlines. My point was the NW cancellations were more notable than the DL cancellation (refer to my post that you quoted if you forgot what exactly I said). Don't make this into something it isn't...
I guess I'm confused why you think a higher volume of seats makes a route either more important or more valuable to the airline. As you should know, there are many route where a large volumes of seats equals large losses. Comparatively, there are less frequent routes (perhaps to more obscure destinations) that have a significantly higher contribution margin.

As such, the only thing notable about having 2-daily international routes operated by NW canceled is that, in the case of KIX, weren't canceled sooner or, in the case of SEA-LHR, were begun in the first place.
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Old Nov 18, 08, 8:04 pm
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MSP-LGW gone too?

I know this is some what off-topic, but I did notice on NWA.com. There is no NW direct flight from MSP-LGW in January. Is this right?

And if so... when is the last flight from MSP-LGW and back? Anybody know?

I did notice when was playing around on NWA.com flights to LGW in January. It would either say there are 'no flights' or depending on the date change. It show flights such as:

MSP-JFK-AMS-LGW or MSP-DTW-AMS-LGW, but 'no' MSP-AMS-LGW

I should mention 'AMS-LGW' were not KLM flights but British Airways flights.

-BondAir007
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Old Nov 18, 08, 8:09 pm
  #24  
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Originally Posted by BondAir007 View Post
I know this is some what off-topic, but I did notice on NWA.com. There is no NW direct flight from MSP-LGW in January. Is this right?

And if so... when is the last flight from MSP-LGW and back? Anybody know?

I did notice when was playing around on NWA.com flights to LGW in January. It would either say there are 'no flights' or depending on the date change. It show flights such as:

MSP-JFK-AMS-LGW or MSP-DTW-AMS-LGW, but 'no' MSP-AMS-LGW

I should mention 'AMS-LGW' were not KLM flights but British Airways flights.

-BondAir007
MSP-LGW ended the day before MSP-LHR started.
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Old Nov 18, 08, 10:00 pm
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Originally Posted by GVA View Post
Though DL/NW may possibly be hoping that axing DTW-KIX makes NGO stronger. And IIRC, NGO has more ties to the auto-industry than KIX does.
Right. NGO is basically owned by the auto/aircraft industry (mainly Toyota and FHI/Subaru), and is one of the key growth areas in Japan right now, although the strong yen may put some more stress on that sector.

IMHO, KIX has had pretty big problems lately with JL (to LHR) and NW axing flights, which may be a reflection on the state of the economy in KIX. Add in the fact that KIX has pretty much no domestic connections (with ITM down the road). Also, I remember reading that KIX had much higher airport taxes than NGO or NRT do.
The Kansai region is pretty flat these days. The main problem is that it has a huge population (on the order of the LAX area) but relatively little demand for premium-class travel. Most of the O&D passengers are tourists, students and other budget-conscious types. So the general idea seems to be funneling traffic through NRT, perhaps on a 757 like the current NRT-NGO run, which keeps KIX on the route map but doesn't waste valuable widebodies and lie-flat seats.

Still there's UA, TG or BR to the West Coast, although many folks flying between Kansai and the East Coast will be forced to connect twice now.
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Old Nov 19, 08, 4:03 am
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Originally Posted by joejones View Post
The Kansai region is pretty flat these days. The main problem is that it has a huge population (on the order of the LAX area) but relatively little demand for premium-class travel. Most of the O&D passengers are tourists, students and other budget-conscious types. So the general idea seems to be funneling traffic through NRT, perhaps on a 757 like the current NRT-NGO run, which keeps KIX on the route map but doesn't waste valuable widebodies and lie-flat seats.
? I don't consider WBC "lie-flat"..

Steve B.
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Old Nov 19, 08, 6:55 am
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Originally Posted by SpinzCity View Post
>>>>Why do airlines hate LGW so much? Or what is it about LHR that they love?

Hot spots are all about volume, and numbers. I like LGW too, though it can be sparser for connections.

If you're going to London, LGW is really nice (a not-hot-spot). If, however, you are connecting through London to far flung destinations, then LHR, as party places go, is, like, Ibiza.
What partners does NW have that you could connect on in London, AF to CDG, KL to AMS, OK to PRG and what else? Connections seem slim. If one is going to book a seperate flight from London, they are likely to get popped twice with the UK's huge ''save the planet'' air ticket tax.
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Old Nov 19, 08, 7:09 am
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Originally Posted by sbagdon View Post
? I don't consider WBC "lie-flat"..

Steve B.
OK, "wedgie seats." Is that better?
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Old Nov 19, 08, 10:39 am
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Originally Posted by mjcewl1284 View Post
The demand is all there. The DTW-KIX flights are always full, almost every month I've flown (and I do cover most of the months with my travelling habits). I have a suspicion that with KIX expanding, prices for keeping jets there overnight probably would go up, therefore getting rid of 69/70 probably was in NW/DL's best interest. I wouldn't be surprised however if we see this flight pop up again in the near future or have a MSP-KIX deal happening.
But those a/c didn't stay at KIX overnight - they continued on to TPE and RON'd there. The KIX-HNL a/c didn't overnight in KIX, either, AFAIK.

OTOH, the landings fees might well be going up if the traffic increases. But I doubt that any airline - even the penny-pinchers at NW and DL - would cut popular service to a major airport on the sole basis of increased landing fees.
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Old Nov 19, 08, 1:41 pm
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Carolinian View Post
What partners does NW have that you could connect on in London, AF to CDG, KL to AMS, OK to PRG and what else? Connections seem slim. If one is going to book a seperate flight from London, they are likely to get popped twice with the UK's huge ''save the planet'' air ticket tax.
I know quite a few people who, indeed, like LGW better because it is less congested, but a great majority of people find LHR more convenient, and in fairness, I completely agree. The problem with LHR is that it is too congested and thus prone to delays when the weather is bad, but it happens in LGW at peak hours too. LHR is much closer to the city in terms of distance as well as travelling time, it is cheaper to get to thanks to the tube connection:cheapest LGW to London centre is 10, and that would only take you to the station at peak time, from LHR, 3.50 at peak time and 2 off peak with an oyster card will take you absolutely anywhere on the tube network in London.

As for connections, your list is missing Moscow with SU, Milan and Rome with AZ, Seoul, with KE, Bucharest with RO (Skyteam associate), Nairobi with KQ (Skyteam associate). With terminal 4 becoming the Skyteam hub in LHR, it is likely that new routes will open when the current crisis is over too.
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