nwa/Delta MERGER: Save WorldPerks!
Apr 16, 2008, 7:32 am
#16
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Seat 1A
Programs: DL; AA; UA; CO; LHLX; NZ; QR; EK; BA
Posts: 7,404
....So that they can continue to work at below-industry-standard wages in order to subsidize our $99 fares?
Apr 16, 2008, 7:43 am
#17
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: eastern Europe & NC
Posts: 4,527
I think you have it backwards. DL was the aggressor in the merger frenzy, and they need NW a lot more than NW needs DL. Read Randy's comments about what is driving this DL merger drive. Unfortunately the resistance to DL's advances was weak because NW has a CEO who stands to benefit financially in a big way from this merger and a board, many of whom represent the interests of shareholders who are former bankruptcy creditors and want to churn their stock, thinking merger euphoria and the expected illusory boomlet will allow them to do that. I am more confident of NW's ability to survive without the dead weight and blundering management of DL. Swissair taking over Sabena didn't save either airline, and Swissair then was a lot better managed than DL is today..
And BTW creating an oligopoly is NOT the way to enhance competition! Oligopoly will only raise fares and reduce service for consumers.
While I can generally understand DL partisans who post, and can respect those like yourself, it is the others who are consistent down the line management mouthpieces on these boards that I have less understanding of. Name the situation, and we always have some who will stridently support management no matter what management does.
And BTW creating an oligopoly is NOT the way to enhance competition! Oligopoly will only raise fares and reduce service for consumers.
While I can generally understand DL partisans who post, and can respect those like yourself, it is the others who are consistent down the line management mouthpieces on these boards that I have less understanding of. Name the situation, and we always have some who will stridently support management no matter what management does.
First, get the facts straight about DL and SkyMiles. The OP had several errors and I should point out the following corrections:
1. DL Plat is 75K
2. DL does have unlimited domestic upgrades (of course based on availability)
3. DL gives you full EQMs across ALL classes of service (on DL)
Now, accept reality people. NW and DL both would have a much harder time of going it alone and staying in business under today's operating conditions, which are much different even from when they emerged from BK a year ago. The two have very complimentary route systems, and as a flyer on both airlines I think while yes, SkyMiles is slightly less attractive than WP, it is not the end of the world at all. And there will still be UA/CO (look for their merger announcement soon), AA and US to keep the market competitive.
Bottom line - do you want your WP miles to be worth something when the two merge or would you rather have WP miles that are worth nothing when/if (likely when) NW eventually would shut down without DL?
It seems that the NW fans are amazingly out of touch sometimes. Unless you plan to buy the airline personally, I think you need to leave the business decisions to MSP and ATL to run the airline in a way that maximizes revenues (not profits, there are no profits with oil at $114/bbl) and allows them to weather this storm while creating an airline that you can fly anywhere in the world without having to deal with alliance partners and partial EQMs (like on CO even).
I'm sure I'll have some major flaming shortly, but we're not talking about a Save WP thing or SSM here - it's a merger of two businesses and it amazes me that some people think they can stamp their feet and it won't happen. Who wants to change their handle to Rumplestiltskin???
1. DL Plat is 75K
2. DL does have unlimited domestic upgrades (of course based on availability)
3. DL gives you full EQMs across ALL classes of service (on DL)
Now, accept reality people. NW and DL both would have a much harder time of going it alone and staying in business under today's operating conditions, which are much different even from when they emerged from BK a year ago. The two have very complimentary route systems, and as a flyer on both airlines I think while yes, SkyMiles is slightly less attractive than WP, it is not the end of the world at all. And there will still be UA/CO (look for their merger announcement soon), AA and US to keep the market competitive.
Bottom line - do you want your WP miles to be worth something when the two merge or would you rather have WP miles that are worth nothing when/if (likely when) NW eventually would shut down without DL?
It seems that the NW fans are amazingly out of touch sometimes. Unless you plan to buy the airline personally, I think you need to leave the business decisions to MSP and ATL to run the airline in a way that maximizes revenues (not profits, there are no profits with oil at $114/bbl) and allows them to weather this storm while creating an airline that you can fly anywhere in the world without having to deal with alliance partners and partial EQMs (like on CO even).
I'm sure I'll have some major flaming shortly, but we're not talking about a Save WP thing or SSM here - it's a merger of two businesses and it amazes me that some people think they can stamp their feet and it won't happen. Who wants to change their handle to Rumplestiltskin???
Last edited by Carolinian; Apr 16, 2008 at 7:55 am
Apr 16, 2008, 9:14 am
#18
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Pleasant Prairie, WI USA DL FO (until 2/04), NW silver '03, NW gold '04+'05 Plat '06+ (thanks, Leo!), DL SkyClub
Programs: DL Plat/ Million Miler, AS, Hilton, Marriott Bonvoy, Piggly Wiggly Pig Points
Posts: 2,233
Correction made re: 75k for plat on both carriers.
The problem for the carriers now happens to be fuel costs and mergers won't necessarily solve that.
The problem for the carriers now happens to be fuel costs and mergers won't necessarily solve that.
Apr 16, 2008, 9:28 am
#19
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Seat 1A
Programs: DL; AA; UA; CO; LHLX; NZ; QR; EK; BA
Posts: 7,404
- DL and NW pilots negotiate seniority issues
- DL pilots walk away
- NW pilots come back to the table suggesting arbitration
- DL pilots reject arbitration; no more talks between both groups
- DL management agrees with DL pilots re: seniority protection
- Things quiet down; DL says ready to go it alone
- NW management comes back to DL with proposal to revisit this proposal again...
Apr 16, 2008, 9:38 am
#20
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: eastern Europe & NC
Posts: 4,527
If you really want to quibble about who is more desparate, consider these facts in chronological order:
- DL and NW pilots negotiate seniority issues
- DL pilots walk away
- NW pilots come back to the table suggesting arbitration
- DL pilots reject arbitration; no more talks between both groups
- DL management agrees with DL pilots re: seniority protection
- Things quiet down; DL says ready to go it alone
- NW management comes back to DL with proposal to revisit this proposal again...
- DL and NW pilots negotiate seniority issues
- DL pilots walk away
- NW pilots come back to the table suggesting arbitration
- DL pilots reject arbitration; no more talks between both groups
- DL management agrees with DL pilots re: seniority protection
- Things quiet down; DL says ready to go it alone
- NW management comes back to DL with proposal to revisit this proposal again...
Apr 16, 2008, 9:40 am
#21
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Seat 1A
Programs: DL; AA; UA; CO; LHLX; NZ; QR; EK; BA
Posts: 7,404
Continue to ask for concessions from your employees? No
Continue to shrink your way to profitabiliity? Works for a bit but not in the medium to long-term.
What a merger (or rather, this merger) hopes to do is to also work on the Revenue side of the equation (instead of just a 100% focus on costs) and boost revenues in order to cover those fuel costs.
Increased revenues can come from a larger, globe-spanning carrier in various ways such as increased access to lucrative corporate accounts (e.g., corporate travelers can do 'one-stop-shopping' with one carrier in order to handle their European, Asian, Latin American, African, etc., travel needs), an expanded customer base (DLNW will have truly worldwide reach), opportunities into new markets with existing assets (e.g., some route duplications can be consolidated to free up aircraft for new markets), etc.
Apr 16, 2008, 9:50 am
#22
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Seat 1A
Programs: DL; AA; UA; CO; LHLX; NZ; QR; EK; BA
Posts: 7,404
Truth is, the pilots also saw this as a chance to get back some of the cuts they had suffered through in previous years (with a DL merger, they would get pay increases just to get them up to the DL pilots' wage standard).
You can harp on all you want about Steenland being the devil, but you can't be that naive to think that Steenland alone pushed this thing through...there is also the small matter of the BoD...at the initial stages of the merger discussion, Steenland was throwing a fit about what his role would be and there appeared to be a stumbling block (Anderson didn't want Steenland to be in the Executive ranks) but the BoD basically told Steenland to shut up and proceed with the merger discussion....
Apr 16, 2008, 10:35 am
#23
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: washington, dc
Programs: Delta Million Miler; NWA Refugee; Hilton Gold
Posts: 214
And NW could have simply flat out said NO. In fact, the employees could have started yelling and screaming up front if they so dreaded this combination. The BoD could have flat out rejected the proposal. But what did the pilots do? No, they went ahead and started negotiations with the DL pilots. Did Steenland force them to? No. Why didn't the NW employees start a "Keep NW My NW" campaign?
Truth is, the pilots also saw this as a chance to get back some of the cuts they had suffered through in previous years (with a DL merger, they would get pay increases just to get them up to the DL pilots' wage standard).
You can harp on all you want about Steenland being the devil, but you can't be that naive to think that Steenland alone pushed this thing through...there is also the small matter of the BoD...at the initial stages of the merger discussion, Steenland was throwing a fit about what his role would be and there appeared to be a stumbling block (Anderson didn't want Steenland to be in the Executive ranks) but the BoD basically told Steenland to shut up and proceed with the merger discussion....
Truth is, the pilots also saw this as a chance to get back some of the cuts they had suffered through in previous years (with a DL merger, they would get pay increases just to get them up to the DL pilots' wage standard).
You can harp on all you want about Steenland being the devil, but you can't be that naive to think that Steenland alone pushed this thing through...there is also the small matter of the BoD...at the initial stages of the merger discussion, Steenland was throwing a fit about what his role would be and there appeared to be a stumbling block (Anderson didn't want Steenland to be in the Executive ranks) but the BoD basically told Steenland to shut up and proceed with the merger discussion....
IF NW pilots were so gung-ho on doing this merger, why haven't they been able to resolve the issue of how to merge the seniorty lists? The last thing we need is the sort of mess that US Airways finds itself in, trying to operate under two labor contracts for pilots? Also, if the deal is so good for NW pilots, why are Delta pilots getting a 3.5% equity stake in the combined airline (source: Detroit News, April 15, 2008) while NW pilots get zilch? Sounds like an effort to buy peace with Delta pilots while NW pilots are on their own, not even sharing in the 4% equity stake for non-pilot employees (same source)?
The only good news I heard is that Rep. Oberstar will hold hearings into the anti-competitive nature of this merger.
By definition an oligopoly is non-competitive. If airlines cannot survive in a truly competitive market, and if airlines are critical to the economic strength of this country, perhaps the time has come to re-regulate the industry so that they are guaranteed a fair profit. If the price of oil ever falls to near historic levels ($50/bbl, not even $30/bbl), the remaining three oligopolistic airlines will gouge the flying public with no restraint.
Apr 16, 2008, 10:52 am
#24
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 22
This is the most realistic, level-headed post I have read on any of the posts regarding the proposed merger. Enjoy the elites benefits you have now, remember they are benefits not rights. If you don't like uncertainty go somewhere else. Happy flying! ^
First, get the facts straight about DL and SkyMiles. The OP had several errors and I should point out the following corrections:
1. DL Plat is 75K
2. DL does have unlimited domestic upgrades (of course based on availability)
3. DL gives you full EQMs across ALL classes of service (on DL)
Now, accept reality people. NW and DL both would have a much harder time of going it alone and staying in business under today's operating conditions, which are much different even from when they emerged from BK a year ago. The two have very complimentary route systems, and as a flyer on both airlines I think while yes, SkyMiles is slightly less attractive than WP, it is not the end of the world at all. And there will still be UA/CO (look for their merger announcement soon), AA and US to keep the market competitive.
Bottom line - do you want your WP miles to be worth something when the two merge or would you rather have WP miles that are worth nothing when/if (likely when) NW eventually would shut down without DL?
It seems that the NW fans are amazingly out of touch sometimes. Unless you plan to buy the airline personally, I think you need to leave the business decisions to MSP and ATL to run the airline in a way that maximizes revenues (not profits, there are no profits with oil at $114/bbl) and allows them to weather this storm while creating an airline that you can fly anywhere in the world without having to deal with alliance partners and partial EQMs (like on CO even).
I'm sure I'll have some major flaming shortly, but we're not talking about a Save WP thing or SSM here - it's a merger of two businesses and it amazes me that some people think they can stamp their feet and it won't happen. Who wants to change their handle to Rumplestiltskin???
1. DL Plat is 75K
2. DL does have unlimited domestic upgrades (of course based on availability)
3. DL gives you full EQMs across ALL classes of service (on DL)
Now, accept reality people. NW and DL both would have a much harder time of going it alone and staying in business under today's operating conditions, which are much different even from when they emerged from BK a year ago. The two have very complimentary route systems, and as a flyer on both airlines I think while yes, SkyMiles is slightly less attractive than WP, it is not the end of the world at all. And there will still be UA/CO (look for their merger announcement soon), AA and US to keep the market competitive.
Bottom line - do you want your WP miles to be worth something when the two merge or would you rather have WP miles that are worth nothing when/if (likely when) NW eventually would shut down without DL?
It seems that the NW fans are amazingly out of touch sometimes. Unless you plan to buy the airline personally, I think you need to leave the business decisions to MSP and ATL to run the airline in a way that maximizes revenues (not profits, there are no profits with oil at $114/bbl) and allows them to weather this storm while creating an airline that you can fly anywhere in the world without having to deal with alliance partners and partial EQMs (like on CO even).
I'm sure I'll have some major flaming shortly, but we're not talking about a Save WP thing or SSM here - it's a merger of two businesses and it amazes me that some people think they can stamp their feet and it won't happen. Who wants to change their handle to Rumplestiltskin???
Apr 16, 2008, 10:59 am
#25
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Mesilla, NM
Programs: DL DM 4.7 MM MQM Marriott Ambassador Lifetime Titanium AA CK
Posts: 2,714
It is a realistic
I am not sure I agree with all the points but the only way we can save NW is to start buying the stock and vote against the merger. Talk is cheap. So who is in? and for how much?
Apr 16, 2008, 11:05 am
#26
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: MSP
Programs: Fallen Plats, ex-WN CP, DYKWIW; still a Hilton Diamond & Club Cholula™ R.I.P. Super Plats
Posts: 25,415
Not really, DL's continued mismanagement is more likely to bring down the combined companies than NW on its own. That's why we would want to save WorldPerks and not see it merged into SkyMiles.
So how do we save WP? I don't see any easy answers.
So how do we save WP? I don't see any easy answers.
Apr 16, 2008, 11:19 am
#27
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: SEA
Posts: 12,485
Here's the reality: the transaction will move forward regardless what some customers or minor shareholders think. At this point, the only thing certain about the future loyalty program is that it will be called SkyMiles. Until the merger is completed, nothing will be said about the program structure, benefits or management.
Apr 16, 2008, 11:34 am
#29
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: PSP
Programs: DL Plat, NW Gold, SPG Gold, AA, UA, BA
Posts: 110
Also, if the deal is so good for NW pilots, why are Delta pilots getting a 3.5% equity stake in the combined airline (source: Detroit News, April 15, 2008) while NW pilots get zilch? Sounds like an effort to buy peace with Delta pilots while NW pilots are on their own, not even sharing in the 4% equity stake for non-pilot employees (same source)?
As far as I'm concerned, the NW pilots should only be offered equity if they work together with the DL pilots and management to build the merged entity into a stronger airline. If not, and if they continue to try to block the merger, then they don't deserve anything.
If NW goes under (or if DL goes under) as stand-alones, then all the pilots get is a place in the unemployment lines. And with 5 carriers going under this month so far, those lines already have a lot of pilots in them.
Apr 16, 2008, 11:41 am
#30
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,679
Although I think a lot of the doom and gloom is over-reaction, I think it's good to let the new executive team know that high value NW customers are very sensitive to changes in WP. That we view some of the "features" of SkyMiles as a step backwards and we're not buying the press release spin like the rest of the flying public. A couple carrots will be needed for the NW folks when the programs merge.