NW Domestic First Class - Worst in the industry???
 

Being NW Platinum for five straight years, I have gotten to know NW pretty darn well. I have also on occasion flown CO, AA, UA, and other majors "up front". The inflight experiences in FC on all other carriers has been MUCH better than NW. Here are a few examples:

NW - VERY scratchy cloth seats
Others - Leather

NW - Rarely FC pillows
Others - Dedicated "nicer" pillows up front

NW - ABSOLUTELY ZERO domestic inflight music/movies
Others - Full selection

NW - NO FIRST CLASS MEAL SELECTION in the last 2 or 3 seats
Others - Several (more than two) selections


I am not complaining, since I happily upgrade for free on discount tickets, - I am simply making an observation. That is why I think NW can NEVER go the route that CO has gone by not giving full mileage credit on discount tickets. The FFers would bolt in a heartbeat if the WP program made that change.
If NW ever demanded that their FFers needed to pay a "premium" (non-discount fares) for their Elite level status, then NW would have to provide a "premium" product. Or most FFers would leave. Instantly & without hesitation.
We will ALWAYS fly NW because of the WP program, NOT because of the in-flight amenities. Lets face it, we all fly NW because of the huge mileage bonuses and the auto upgrades.
NW knows that their "product" is not even on the same planet as most other carriers (except SW), so they realize that they MUST keep the same (or better) FF benefits to retain the FFers. NW is simply not in a position to make achieving Elite-level status harder.
All I know is that if I paid $1800 for a FC ticket and I was sitting in 4D on an A319, & the FA told me my only option for breakfast was a bowl of Cheerios, I would be extremely disappointed. Even the guy in 22E gets a meal choice!!!!!
That is why we have NOTHING to fear as FFers. NW recognizes this and will never, ever demand higher fares for elite status like other airlines. They know they do not have the product & service to back it up with!!!
Can you guys please let me know who has the worst domestic FC? I hope I am not off-base with this post. (Just joined the board this week!!). THANKS SO MUCH!!

NW - VERY scratchy cloth seats
Others - Leather

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NWA seats are as comfortable as the other airlines. I personally think Mesaba's RJ85 seats in FC (with lumbar support) are the best FC seats of all the domestic airlines)

RC

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NW - Rarely FC pillows
Others - Dedicated "nicer" pillows up front

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I find plenty of pillows and blankets on most every flight I take on NWa, the caution is that pillows and blankets are not always clean (this is an industry wide issue)

RC

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NW - ABSOLUTELY ZERO domestic inflight music/movies
Others - Full selection

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I think most pax don't want to listen to a video (like Co's intro Video of Gordon and "shorts" whe they are reading, doing work on a laptop, or talking to a business asociate. Many people that want to see a moviw bring the movie they want to watch and a DVD player. It may be wasteful to show movies on a/c that nobody wants to watch (and expensive too!)

RC

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NW - NO FIRST CLASS MEAL SELECTION in the last 2 or 3 seats
Others - Several (more than two) selections

Easy solution to this concern, sit in rows 1 (bulkhead, or rows 2-3 of A320/319 and rows 1-4 on 757's)

RC

i highly disagree with you about the audio/visual portion, this is why i stopped flying nwa, lack of ife. i enjoy the f cabin on america west. i enjoyed most of my experiences with co in f, but their f/a always seem to have a stick up their _ _ _! alaska air also had a nice f product, but recent catering cutbacks have hurt i think.

NW: more seats in the front for free upgrate regardless of fare base

Others: ...

If I have to pay $1800 to sit in the front, I may select a different carrier. If I pay the price sit in the back, I will still chose NW.

The worst first class is the one I can't get into...

I've often enough been in the last row and had my meal choice to dispute that claim.... plus, it's nice to get a meal! You should have seen what that widget airline claimed was a "meal" the last time I flew first class (paid, mind you) with them...

And personally, I dislike sticky leather and don't watch IFE -- I actively LIKE the fact that on NW domestic there is no "battle of the windowshades". I know many have a different take, but that should tip you that comparatives and superlatives are very subjective.

It is very much a matter of personal preference. Since I have never had the pleasure of Potentate Class (tm) on a far or middle eastern airline, but have too often had the less-than-pleasant experience of North American coach, I can stay happy with NW first, thank you very much.

I believe that NW does successfully demand higher returns for elite status by making us loyal -- fly more or less conveniently -- in return for the bribe. That has to count for extra cash in the till, eh?

If enough of us like the NW approach, they'll do okay.



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"It was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity..."

I absolutely agree, and think you should join a different program to free up a seat for me.

Thanks in advance.

If I want to watch a movie I put a DVD in the player...if I want to listen to music I put my headphones on (I usually don't like the airline selections anyways)....F on NWA beats an RJ any day of the week in my book and since NWA has more F seats in their inventory it's very unusual that I'm not upgraded....unlike CO

I think most domestic/Intl IFE is second rate.

If you fly to AMS for example, how often do you find a first rate (current in theatres) movie to watch.

Aren't most IFE choice 3-4 months (or more!) out of date?

I think in domestic FC most pax want a quiet FC cabin, enjoy the extra seat pitch (and seat width) and if a FC pax wants to watch a movie they have the DVD player and the movie.

Personally, I think the airlines spending a lot of $$$$ on domestic IFE and paying big $$$$ for the IFE content (whether anyone watches it or not) is not good business.

Just my opinion

RC

yo kid,

You're 100% dead on with your assessment. Don't let the emotional redcoats here fool you - they're drinking too much of the nwa kool-aid (james page?).

The same points have been brought up by myself and others before. We stay with NWA b/c of the FF program (bonus, promotions, upgrades) ONLY. Everything else is bottom of the barrel (IFE, FC seats, meals, etc.)

The issues you mention are quite noticeable with trans-con flights. NWA doesn't (and can't) compete in the heavy, business trans-con LAX,SFO,NYC,BOS markets. They can get away with lower level of services. Have you been to the LAX WC? It's a joke....

I give NWA leadership a lot of credit for the "business" they run. However, let's not fool ourselves with what product they truly have and target.

Kidvintage,

I agree 100% with you. NW FC is not the best out there but it is easily available and it has one of the biggest cabins up front for the airplanes that they operate.

Let's not forget the lack of HOT TOWELS and yes, it bothers me that whenever I am in row 4 they always seem to run out of choice.

I was not complaining - merely making a few observations.

Isn't it pretty embarrassing that NW gives different levels of FC service depending on what seat you are sitting in???

NW tends to provide the most consistent domestic FC experience: it is by far not the best, but it is the most consistent. Highlights http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif include:

* Meals at meal times for longer duration flights
* Unlimitied free drinks
* Large cloth seats
* FC on all domestic mainline aircraft
* No IFE on any domestic flight
* Easier to upgrade than AA, UA, US, DL, CO... for Plats, Golds AND Silvers

I have had my share of steak on UA and ice cream on CO.... but no other airline will offer me a reasonable (75%+) to upgrade for free on a cheap coach fare - which is all I am prepared to pay while I'm still in school http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

In case you are not familiar with in-flight entertainment, it involves passengers plugging in headphones for the audio portion. As a result, a cabin with IFE can also be quiet.

And if passenger all just brought their own amenities, would airlines need to provide them at all?

Is the part regarding "the airlines spending a lot of $$$$ on domestic IFE and paying big $$$$ for the IFE content" an opinion or fact? Do airlines actually spend a lot of "$$$$" on domestic IFE? Are they actually paying big "$$$$" for IFE content?

I fly over 200+ domestic segments/year on Northwest aircraft (excluding Mesaba/Pinnacle) and have a 99% success rate I think that speaks volumes for NWA.

I don't see why pax are unhappy with NWA's FC domestic product, I'm happy with it.

RC

Have you been to the LAX WC? It's a joke....

I have been there. A few years ago, a group of 38 colleagues and I got together and told one of the WorldClub bosses that we would all sign up with 3-year memberships if they would extend the LAX WC hours to cover the MEM-MSP-DTW "red-eye" departures that used to leave LAX past midnight. NW agreed. We all signed up.

A year later they readjusted (cutback) the schedule & we could no longer use the club for our "red-eye" departures. We asked for a pro-rated refund because NW reneged on their WRITTEN agreement to extend the hours. NW refused. A few other guys pursued it further & got some TCV's & miles. Kind of left a bad taste in my mouth........

Of course you are happy with it!!! I am happy with it too!!! Wanna know why we are both happy with it? BECAUSE IT IS FREE!!!! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Thank you for making my point for me: NW FC is consistently by far not the best. THANKS!!

I concur 110%, if it were not for NW FF program and if all things were equal NW would be in severe trouble.

But as it is, I also fly a lot of segments per year and have been able to fly F class 98% of the time too.

Even with the upgraded amenities that the others may offer, I still would not trade NW in due my 98% close ratio for upgrades.

I do believe that NW realizes this and for that reason they are very stingy with who they give their Platinum Elite status to and why they feel they do not need to compete 100% with other airlines F cabins.

On other airlines Elite status is up for sale, I doubt we will see this with NW. (THANK GOD!!!)

I agree 100% with this statement. Even though other airlines have MUCH better amenities, NW Elite status is TOO GOOD to give up. The 99% upgrade ratio that I have enjoyed over the past five years will keep me coming back!!

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - NW's food stinks compared to AA or CO, the IFE is non-existent, the seat pitch feels a little tight, and the seats are a little chintzy-- BUT, those weaknesses are all blown away by the fact that top level Elite members get upgraded nearly 100% of the time to First Class. While AA's offer of unlimited upgrades for Executive Platinums diminishes NW's strength in this area to a degree, NW remains the best airline when it comes to frequency with which one finds his or her butt upgraded to a First Class seat.

When I want to "feel like I'm flying in First" (and am willing pay a little more to upgrade), I fly AA.

When I want to almost guarantee myself a First Class seat (with little more expected), I fly NW.

If both I had choice between free unlimited upgrades on AA or NW, I would pick AA in a heartbeat.




[This message has been edited by snorkmaster (edited Mar 24, 2004).]

So I guess those of us who don't care for leather and dislike IFE but love the upgrade to a somewhat bigger and wider (did I mention WIDER???) seat, and are also fond of the mostly really nice flight attendants, plus are addicted to the almost 100% upgrade success as platinums (plus drink kool-aid), are just willing to accept an inferior product.

Shucks!

Face it guys, it all comes down to personal preferences. Some of us prefer a less elaborate but consistently provided product, huh? What is best for some is not best for others. It's all subjective. Sheesh! There is no "best" or "worst", get it?

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"It was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity..."

[edited to correct added "ed"]


[This message has been edited by LexPassenger (edited Mar 24, 2004).]

NW elite program is great, i must agree. i may switch from CO next year. and when i do fly NW, i do appreciate the 100% upgrade success rate.

however, i must say (and agree wit some), that thier FC cabin is terrible. the seats are the worst. they are to short, to close together, dirty and scratchy, even in WBC. NW's meal service is terrible. everything all at once. no good. no IFE, not so bad (im more of a reading and MP3 guy), but just seems cheap. but again, its better than coach, the upgrade is easy and the FA's are always nice.

in terms of the worst FC, i think the meal service on HP or DL may lack the most, but HP's cabins on airbus ac are very nice. DL's cabins are starting to look like s#@t.

I believe the original post was correct on these issues and they should not be trivialized as they were in the above response.

The balance here for me -- and mostly everyone else -- is that NW's upgrade rate for Elites is pretty darn good and it still beats being on Beaver or Jungle Jets.

While I like NW and the upgrades, the points raised about the quality versus other carriers are apt.

I'd`say NW's FC isn't bad--but could be better. One thing it sure isn't is FUN: something that flying hasn't been for a couple of decades.

Dick: I don't believe it trivializes a post to point out that not all are in agreement.

IFE is an interesting variable. Most pax like it, some hate it. I'm among the haters -- it is boring and makes the other folks angry that I, at the window, do not want to put the shade down.

It is a distinguishing characteristic among service providers. Among the many reasons I am currently choosing NW, NO IFE is one. If others want to choose other carriers based on their IFE provision, more power to them.

It manifestly does not trivialize the post to suggest that many passengers do not care for IFE, because in point of fact MANY PASSENGERS DO NOT CARE FOR IFE.

The rest of you are free to choose among the many other airlines who are more than happy to provide you with domestic IFE. If Northwest goes broke not catering to that taste, they and I will both be very unhappy.

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"It was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity..."

Actually, the comment I felt was trivialized more was about meal selection and the flippant response that if you don't like it, sit in a row at the front. (Note: we always don't have control over seat assignment.)

I hear you about IFE -- but that's why they have headsets.

That does not sound like a valid reason to dislike IFE. IFE is not an intrusive amenity. If you want to watch it, watch it, put on ear phones. If you don't, you don't.

As for window shades, those who sit in the window seats control the window shades. It's as simple as that. Even on NW flights, if passenger A likes to read and have a reading lamp and passenger B right beside wants to sleep, it's ultimately passenger A who controls his/her own reading lamp.

Similarly, if I am on a NW flight and you like to keep the window shade open and I'd like to sleep, I can still ask you to lower the shade (a request which you are free to refuse).

Ultimately, lighting and views are shared by the entire cabin. If you want your window shades up, keep them up. If you don't, close them down.

[This message has been edited by keithguy (edited Mar 24, 2004).]

This is the EXACT point that I was trying to make with the original post on this subject: NW MUST MUST MUST continue to offer superior benefits for Elite members (bonus miles, upgrades, promotions) because if all frequent flyer programs were the same, NW would be most travelers LAST choice!!

Quick question for Radioman and others who think I am off-base:

Why should the FIRST CLASS passenger in seat 4D be treated differently than the passenger in 2D??? There is a 90+% chance you will not get a selection of meal in 4D!!!

The grandmother in seat 22E even gets a choice of meal!!!!

How about this: Before spending millions & millions to put in new WBC seats on the widebodies, how about catering an extra couple of meals for your domestic flights so your supposed "premium" passengers can get something they want?? Would that be too much to ask??

Admittedly, I've only flow domestic first on NW/CO & DL. Each has F seats that are better or worse, depending on aircraft. All three have at one time or another not had my preferred meal choice by the time the FA reached my seat. My last F meal on NW included a nice appetizer, a decent entree, and the best chunk of chocolate cake I can remember being treated to in a long time, served by a super friendly and attentive FA who remembered me from a previous flight.

Oh, and I love IFE, but turns out I get some much needed rest after reading a book when it's not an option. So unless UA & AA offer in flight massage, prime rib carved to order seat-side, served with the finest wines in crystal goblets on my way to TPA, I really don't see the difference, and I’ll gladly continue to ride the red tail http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif.

Not necessarily. A lot of travellers pick their flights based on schedule and availability of non-stops to their destination. I suspect the paid F pax will be even more tied to schedule.

I just can't picture someone who's so important that he/she is paying $3-4K for a domestic full fare F ticket to say "Forget that LAX-DTW non-stop. I can connect in ORD. I hear the food is better on AA." or "That CO transcon F service kicks b*tt...let me do the LAX-EWR transcon then backtrack to DTW since it's allowed in the routing rules." Doesn't make sense.

Unless flying to another carrier's hub, NW doesn't have much premium competition in the markets it serves. Further, look at some of the top, big ticket paid domestic F routes and who's flying them:

LAX-NYC/EWR (CO, AA, UA)
SFO-NYC/EWR (CO, AA, UA)
LAX-WAS (AA, UA)

NW doesn't come up once, so they can afford to be less competitive in the F cabin domestically since they're presumably selling less F than others.

In defense of NW, this is often the case on other carriers as well...although...other carriers have 3 entree choices rather than 2 from time to time.

I never cared the seats weren't leather.

Why does leather matter? Do cloth seats offend your egalitarian sensabilities?

I actually prefer the cloth seats...

The airline (nwa) is trying to operate a "for profit" business. Adding extra meals that will be disgarded upon arrival at the destination just doesn't make good business sense.

Re: WBC Seats.

To make the A330 experience better NWA researched a more comfortable eat for the long haul flights. Powerports, good international IFE, games, music, etc were upgraded from the old WBC product. The MC also has powerports on the A330 in the first section.

Other than the slope (angle) of the seats I think NWA did a good job with the new WBC.

These trips cost more (have you purchased a WBC ticket recently?) and I think it was a good investment for NWA to develop a more competitive/comfortable WBC product.

RC

[This message has been edited by Radiocycle (edited Mar 25, 2004).]

I don't have any problems with NW flights, myself. I do think that CO F/C is a bit better (sundaes), but nothing I'd really consider when buying a ticket.

The biggest factor is EQMs and FC upgrade. I have a trip to Philly tomorrow. One leg is on Continental. The other 3 are on NW. Care to guess which didn't get upgraded?

I get treated well on NW, no need to buy the tickets on nwa.com, their Biz Perk program is a nice bonus, and plenty of upgrades. I would hope for more international upgrades, but hopefully in the future. At least they're not gutting their FF program, and they have decent availability for miles.

The IFE I agree with to some extent, but I really don't care much. I don't find myself desiring to watch stale reruns of Everybody Loves Raymond or some chopped up second-rate movie. If IFE is there, I'll generally partake a bit, if it's not, I don't mind.

With seats, who cares if it's leather or cloth? I certainly don't. I feel just as comfortable in NW F seats as I do in CO or DL F seats. I can't speak for other airlines.

As for meal choice, I have never not had a choice, regardless of where in the F cabin I have been seated. Maybe I'm just lucky. I find the quality of food is nearly identical to CO, and it is far above what's offered as "food" on DL. I also don't care if it's served all at once. I actually prefer to get rid of the tray ASAP.

IMHO NW offers the best overall product in the sky. My butt sits in the big seat nearly all the time, and I enjoy that.

Please keep in mind though that my senses may have been dulled by years of flying the bottom of the barrel: DL.

NW represents the best value for my travel dollars. For me it boils down to where I am the most comfortable, treated the best in the air and on the ground and how much it costs me to be sitting in F or WBC. NW wins hands down! As for actually sitting in F I am 100% as a platinum, unless I make a change at the last minute(i.e. deciding to take an earlier flight) and I have never had a problem using miles to upgrade into WBC.

I have a nuetral opinion about leather v. cloth. I have paid some serious dollars to sit in leather seats a few times and have experienced some less than spectacular service.

IFE, who needs it! The movies are lousy most of the time. It doesn't matter who you are flying on because all the airlines are showing the same things anyway, give or take a month. The music selections never rocked my boat either. When I fly in WBC I usually watch the air show, and listen to my own CD's.

I do enjoy the meals on NW and either selection will be fine with me as long as I get the cake http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif. When asked for a meal choice I will offer to take whats left in case anyone else has a stronger preference.

Our experiences are about the same -- sometimes I prefer the cloth seats and even DC-9's!

As for IFE--depends on the program. I was on a DL flight where "13 Days" was being shown. It was so gripping that nobody got up to use the facilities -- until the closing credits when there was a mad dash and long line! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Welcome to FlyerTalk kidvintage

This discussion has come up many times in the past and usually in one of the forums like TravelBuzz where individuals from all the different forums post. Ultimately what it comes down to is what are your personal preferences.

Even before I was a poster and still a lurker here at FT one of the original posters (those without a date after registered) stated: "ultimately what it comes down to is that each individual has different needs/wants and that those needs/wants are going to provide a different solution."

As a value-minded leisure traveler my needs/wants have not changed since I first posted what they were in FT. 1)an inexpensive fare 2)an opportunity to upgrade once in awhile 3)flights to where I want to go.

So what all this meant was that yesterday I was flying in coach non-stop to Boston on an AA plane so that I could get a free tix anywhere that AA flies in the future. Thought it was a good trade off under what is my critera. In fact it ultimately will also mean that at the end of the year I will not be plat on NW (only Gold) but I will also be (Plat) on AA. 2005 who knows?

Okay I just have one question. What do you wear on a plane that you would even believe that the cloth is 'scratchy?' I have visions of short shorts and a tank top but there just may be clothing out there that is thin enough (i do not wear it) where scratchiness of cloth can be percieved. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif



[This message has been edited by magic111 (edited Mar 25, 2004).]