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crying babies in FC is one thing but...

crying babies in FC is one thing but...

 
Old Jul 19, 07, 3:15 am
  #46  
 
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Those who love their dogs or other pets will generally agree that the best way to travel is to leave them at home or with a sitter. But sometimes one has no choice. Lets remember, especially today, flying is nothing more than no-frills, widely accessible public transportation.

It seems to me that the contract of carriage and airline policies regarding pets or service animals traveling in the cabin are both fair and very clear.

If one does not agree with the contract and policies, or is bothered by traveling with the general public, then one should not take public transportation. If one believes that the policies and contract of carriage are faulty, one should complain to the airline rather entering into discussion with those complying with the contract.

Having said that, it is the 10% of parents who can't parent and the 10% of animal owners who can't train and care properly that make things difficult for the other 90%.

Last edited by Klm is Dead - Long Live KLM; Jul 19, 07 at 3:22 am
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Old Jul 19, 07, 6:36 am
  #47  
 
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I don't think you can equate dogs to humans. You do not need to travel with your dog or cat, they are not your "legal property" (I know, bad term for kids). You can find a sitter or leave them with a friend.

Regardless, many countries have a quarantine for 6 months if you bring your dog in, I'm sure the conditions there are worse there than in the cargo area of an AC.

And what about overseas flights? 9 hrs on a plane? While my dog could make it up to 13hrs, I'm sure there are ones that can't. So what, they piss in their carry on then the plane smells like dog piss? Don't even get me started on if I'm sitting next to you and your dogs busts a dookie. With a child you can take them to the changing area or bathroom. NW rules specifically state you cannot take your dog out from under the seat. Great.

As much as I love my dog, I do not put her on the same level as a human. I know I'd have a hard time, and an even harder time convincing my wife of that, but honestly, a dog is not a human.

And I can't stress enough, I'm an avid dog lover, but really, there has to be some boundaries.

Can you take a dog on Amtrak? The subway? In a cab? On the Bus? -- those are all public transportation too.
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Old Jul 19, 07, 9:48 am
  #48  
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Thinking the one exception is the seeing eye dog - but where do they sit?
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Old Jul 19, 07, 10:31 am
  #49  
 
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This has nothing to do with equating dogs to humans. It has to do with 1) mutual respect and tolerance and 2) what the contract of carriage says that ticket-holding humans are allowed to bring with them. I would guess that many of us have traveled in the same cabin with discretely held, well-behaved animals many times without every having noticed them (which is more than one can say for certain elites, jabbering into an always-on cell phone with three oversized carry-ons, two sharp elbows and one ego as large as their waistline).

Depending on the airline, the contract of carriage says it is allowed to bring certain dogs or other service and companion animals in the cabin with the passenger under certain conditions. Period. Would I do it? No. Do I need to do it? No. Would my dog even fit in the cabin? No. But I respect the possibility for others to do so. As long as they play by the rules; they paid for their ticket just as I did.

I can't speak for Amtrak, but in most countries I travel to that have real-world, fully-functioning domestic and international train networks rather than just the quaint remnants of one, dogs are allowed on board with the passenger. The same goes for other public transportation such as biking on roads, walking on sidewalks and taking taxis, buses, subway/underground, ferries, etc. Why should airplanes be different?

One thing nice about living in Amsterdam is that there seem to be fewer people with aggressive neuroses and "allergies". It must be all the rain we have here or maybe it's the better-quality second-hand smoke; I don't know. Dogs are welcome just about anywhere, including at my favorite cafe where I can often be found after a long week of traveling alone, drinking and eating with friends while fido sleeps contently at my feet.
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Old Jul 19, 07, 10:57 am
  #50  
 
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Originally Posted by Klm is Dead - Long Live KLM View Post
But I respect the possibility for others to do so. As long as they play by the rules; they paid for their ticket just as I did.
And so do I. And yes, I'm sure plenty of us have been on flights without knowing there were pets on. However, I think there's a bigger lack of respect the other way, people bringing on pets who are not trained to fly. People shove larger than allowed dogs in their bags, they pull them out during flight to coddle them and show them off, and generally don't respect the fact that there are other people on the plane.

I agree many people are hypersensitive and quick to blame "allergies". But trust me, if I'm within 10 ft of a rabbit, my eyes water (I wear contacts, so that's a pain), I sneeze, my noes runs. So remember there are people with serious allergies. Am I "allergic" to cats? Yes. Same extent as rabbits? No. If I see a cat on the plane, my allergies might flare up, but I can always pop a pill or two and take care of it.
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Old Jul 19, 07, 1:40 pm
  #51  
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I love how some people think pet travel is somehow optional. Yes, maybe it is for Madonna's puppies, but it wasn't for my cats or the millions of other animals who must travel when their owners relocate. In my case it was a choice of a 5-hour transcon flight or a hellacious 3000 mile drive with 2 cats. Anybody who knows anything about cats knows that the flight was far more humane for all involved. I sedated the animal before we left for the airport, and he didn't make a peep until about an hour before landing.

Pet travel is not always optional, and auto travel is not always feasible, e.g. Hawaii. Those with allergies are always free to contact the airline and book another flight, because most airlines require you to make a pet reservation if you want to bring the pet on the plane.

As for the stats on pet deaths, I'm not going to do your research for you but I'm sure a quick web search will turn up the data you require.
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Old Jul 19, 07, 4:22 pm
  #52  
 
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Originally Posted by Boraxo View Post
As for the stats on pet deaths, I'm not going to do your research for you but I'm sure a quick web search will turn up the data you require.
Now now Boraxo. It was you who said "A couple of years ago, at least 5000 dogs died in the cargo hold last year due to the heat." Some find that statement incredible. I certainly do. Kindly cite your source. Thank you.
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Old Jul 19, 07, 5:47 pm
  #53  
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Originally Posted by kcnwa View Post
And so do I. And yes, I'm sure plenty of us have been on flights without knowing there were pets on. However, I think there's a bigger lack of respect the other way, people bringing on pets who are not trained to fly. People shove larger than allowed dogs in their bags, they pull them out during flight to coddle them and show them off, and generally don't respect the fact that there are other people on the plane.
Well said.

Sometimes it is required to take a pet on a plane. But you should only contemplate taking a well-behaved pet in-cabin. If your pet has special "personality issues", as your fellow passenger, I'd prefer you put them in the cargo hold- or leave them at home.
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Old Jul 19, 07, 6:11 pm
  #54  
 
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Originally Posted by Boraxo View Post
As for the stats on pet deaths, I'm not going to do your research for you but I'm sure a quick web search will turn up the data you require.
I found a very poor site that had a generalization of 5000 deaths, but it didn't cite any source didn't state whether that was cargo, domestic or international either.

I could not find any credible news source, other than one in which 4 dogs died... More humans died on a plane last night than that.
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Old Jul 19, 07, 6:49 pm
  #55  
 
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Originally Posted by Boraxo View Post
Anybody who knows anything about cats knows that the flight was far more humane for all involved. I sedated the animal before we left for the airport, and he didn't make a peep until about an hour before landing.
The juxtaposition of those two statements is rather...illuminating...

"for all involved" -- so, does that mean you? And I find it curious that you refer to your cat -- your pet -- as "the animal". What's that about? No cat owner I've ever known refers to their cat as "the animal".
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Old Jul 20, 07, 12:40 am
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Klm is Dead - Long Live KLM View Post
This has nothing to do with equating dogs to humans. It has to do with 1) mutual respect and tolerance. I would guess that many of us have traveled in the same cabin with discretely held, well-behaved animals many times without every having noticed them (which is more than one can say for certain elites, jabbering into an always-on cell phone with three oversized carry-ons, two sharp elbows and one ego as large as their waistline).
well said. I'm amazed at the lack of personal responsibility many of today's fliers have. it does not matter if it's a baby, animal, guy who puts feet into you armrest, lady who put bag in overhead at front of plane or drunk person: everyone needs to think outside their bubble and consider their fellow pax.
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