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NW Evaluating CRJ-900 & EMB-190 in MSP on 7/27

NW Evaluating CRJ-900 & EMB-190 in MSP on 7/27

 
Old Jul 28, 06, 8:16 pm
  #16  
 
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76 seats is a lot less than a DC9-50

The 76 seat limitation was negotiated between NWA and the pilots.

Compass is moving forward and is going to decide which airframes it will be ordering. This evaluation is for Compass, not Northwest.

I wonder what the seat pitch in FC and Y will be.

RC

Originally Posted by NWsilverflyer
Interesting that you say a "full FC cabin." I thought RC said it would only be 6 seats (2 rows). Given that 78 seats is getting fairly close to the size of a DC 9-30 which has 16 seats, that doesn't strike me as a "full FC cabin." More like half the size or so. But, I guess one mitigating factor is that hopefully a lot of the routes will not be elite heavy.

Last edited by Radiocycle; Jul 30, 06 at 4:48 pm
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Old Jul 28, 06, 8:32 pm
  #17  
 
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Originally Posted by themicah
No-brainer from the pax perspective, sure. But from the airline's perspective, they have several other considerations:
  1. reliability (I've heard rumors that the EMBs break a lot)
  2. cost to operate (the CRJs are slightly more fuel-efficient on a per-passenger basis)
  3. commonality (NW already owns a boatload of CRJ-200s, so they'd presumably need to do less pilot/mechanic training for the CRJ-900s than the EMB series).

But let's hope that those three factors aren't very good, so they can choose the pax-friendly choice.

NW does NOT have CRJs. Mesaba does. BIG difference. I saw these out at MSP yesterday, (the CRJ was still there this morning) and they looked nice. Both 76 seats and First equipped.
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Old Jul 28, 06, 8:38 pm
  #18  
 
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Originally Posted by NWA_5479
NW does NOT have CRJs. Mesaba does. BIG difference. I saw these out at MSP yesterday, (the CRJ was still there this morning) and they looked nice. Both 76 seats and First equipped.
Actually pinnacle has the CRJ's, Mesaba still flies Saabs (at least as far as I have seen lately)
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Old Jul 28, 06, 9:57 pm
  #19  
 
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Originally Posted by Radiocycle
The 76 seat limitation was negotiated between NWA and the pilots.

I wonder what the seat pitch in FC and Y will be.

RC
But what about the EMB's or CRJ's that NW mainline will fly - won't those be around 90? That is getting awfully close to the size of a DC9-30, the type of DC9 that is most prevalent in the fleet and flies some pretty elite-heavy routes, such as DCA-MSP/DCA-DTW/MSP-DTW and the like.
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Old Jul 28, 06, 10:48 pm
  #20  
 
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Originally Posted by Radiocycle
The 76 seat limitation was negotiated between NWA and the pilots.

I wonder what the seat pitch in FC and Y will be.

RC
Maybe you can infer something from these:
CRJ900 stats:
"Standard seating is for 86 passengers with seats at 31in pitch (78.7cm) in a four-abreast configuration. Other interior layouts include two-class interiors with mixed seat pitch."
ERJ190 stats:
"The aircraft features a double bubble type, rather than circular cross section fuselage. This provides a larger cabin width (2.53m at floor level and 2.74m at shoulder level) and easier access to the overhead baggage bins. The height within the passenger cabin is 2.00m.
The interior cabin is designed by the US company C&D Interiors and seats 98 passengers in a centre-aisle, four-abreast configuration. "

For comparaison, AirCanada's E190 seat 9J/84Y, with 39"/34" pitch. Definitely over the 76 seat limit...

(see CRJ900 and ERJ190 for further details)
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Old Jul 28, 06, 11:51 pm
  #21  
 
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As stated by others, the CRJ-200's could not be flown by NWA mainline. They have to few seats. The Flight Attendant agreement states that the plane must be able to seat 77-110 to be considered for the smallest jet.
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Old Jul 29, 06, 8:49 am
  #22  
 
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Originally Posted by NWAFA
As stated by others, the CRJ-200's could not be flown by NWA mainline. They have to few seats. The Flight Attendant agreement states that the plane must be able to seat 77-110 to be considered for the smallest jet.
And the 77-110 seat jets will be flown under the "Compass" brand, not NWA, correct?

So any aircraft 76 seats and under will be flown by a regional carrier, such as Mesaba or Pinnacle?
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Old Jul 29, 06, 12:37 pm
  #23  
 
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Originally Posted by DoraTheExplorer
And the 77-110 seat jets will be flown under the "Compass" brand, not NWA, correct?

So any aircraft 76 seats and under will be flown by a regional carrier, such as Mesaba or Pinnacle?
I was under the impresion that the 76 limit was for Compass, and that above 77 is mainline.

I had been under the impression (maybe incorrectly) that a good deal of the larger D9s would be replaced with A319s.
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Old Jul 29, 06, 12:56 pm
  #24  
 
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Originally Posted by themicah
No-brainer from the pax perspective, sure. But from the airline's perspective, they have several other considerations:
  1. reliability (I've heard rumors that the EMBs break a lot)
  2. cost to operate (the CRJs are slightly more fuel-efficient on a per-passenger basis)
  3. commonality (NW already owns a boatload of CRJ-200s, so they'd presumably need to do less pilot/mechanic training for the CRJ-900s than the EMB series).

But let's hope that those three factors aren't very good, so they can choose the pax-friendly choice.
I agree with you, it is not as easy as it seems. Even though the EMB is a lot better.
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Old Jul 29, 06, 1:51 pm
  #25  
 
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Originally Posted by NWsilverflyer
Interesting that you say a "full FC cabin." I thought RC said it would only be 6 seats (2 rows). Given that 78 seats is getting fairly close to the size of a DC 9-30 which has 16 seats, that doesn't strike me as a "full FC cabin." More like half the size or so. But, I guess one mitigating factor is that hopefully a lot of the routes will not be elite heavy.
Had my Continental hat on for 'full' FC cabin They are very conscious about elite upgrade %s in the decision process though...and as bad as the product is, they seem to manage things to ensure they always hit their internal targets for that. Of course, speak to anyone who flies SFO/SEA-MSP and you will hear an earful otherwise.
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Old Jul 29, 06, 2:55 pm
  #26  
 
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Originally Posted by DoraTheExplorer
And the 77-110 seat jets will be flown under the "Compass" brand, not NWA, correct?

So any aircraft 76 seats and under will be flown by a regional carrier, such as Mesaba or Pinnacle?

The 77-110 seats applies to NWA not Compass. And from what I'm hearing, there may not be any Compass.
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Old Jul 29, 06, 3:22 pm
  #27  
 
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Originally Posted by NWAFA
The 77-110 seats applies to NWA not Compass. And from what I'm hearing, there may not be any Compass.
Oops. Didn't mean to spread inaccurate information. Is the contract different for the pilots and FAs?
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Old Jul 29, 06, 4:36 pm
  #28  
 
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Originally Posted by NWAFA
The 77-110 seats applies to NWA not Compass. And from what I'm hearing, there may not be any Compass.

Would you care to elaborate?
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Old Jul 29, 06, 7:08 pm
  #29  
 
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Here is the letter of agreement between NWA and AFA.

LETTER OF AGREEMENT

Between

NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC.

and

FLIGHT ATTENDANTS

In the service of

NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC.

As represented by

THE ASSOCIATION OF FLIGHT ATTENDANTS – CWA, AFL-CIO


THIS AGREEMENT is entered into by and between Northwest Airlines, Inc., a
Minnesota Corporation (the “Company”) and the Flight Attendants in the service of
Northwest Airlines, Inc. as represented by the Association of Flight Attendants – CWA
(the “Union”).

During the life of this Agreement, should the Company acquire small jets configured with
between 77 and 110 seats for use in its mainline operation, the Company and the Union
agree to meet and negotiate appropriate regional-like rates (e.g., USAirways, Jet Blue,
Air Wisconsin, American Eagle, ASA, Comair, Mesa, PSA, Republic, SkyWest,
TranStates) for all flight attendant block hours on such aircraft. Such negotiations shall
commence not later than nine (9) months prior to the planned start of such small jet
operations. If the parties are unable to agree to such rates, the issue shall be submitted to
expedited arbitration not later than ninety (90) days prior to the planned start of the small
jet operations. Such arbitration shall be conducted by the Northwest Flight Attendant
System Board of Adjustment sitting with a neutral arbitrator as chair. The decision of the
System Board shall be issued at least thirty (30) days prior to the start of small jet
operations.

Agreed to this ___ day of __________, 2006.


FOR NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC. FOR THE ASSOCIAITON OF
FLIGHT ATTENDANTS-CWA

I can't remember the specifics of the Pilot agreement, so I really don't want to comment. As you can see in the Flight Attendant Letter of Agreement, we have to be given 9 MONTHS notice if the company is going to bring small jets to mainline flying. From what I'm hearing is that the Pilot's feel that they were duped into signing a contract for less money or something.

Compass was supposed to start flying with one airplane in June. June has come and gone with no further mention of Compass.

Also this may be a rumor, NWA lost the I.A. certificate because they didn't start up Compass like they said they would.

When NWA decides to start replacing the 9's, it's not going to be all at once. Some of the 9's I'm surprised can even make it into the air, but others, NWA plans on having around for a couple of more years.
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Old Jul 29, 06, 9:59 pm
  #30  
 
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The 76 seat limit for regionals was negotiated with the Pilots

The old limit for regional airlink seating capacity was 69 seats, negotiated during the Pilots strike, the 69 seat limit was raised to 76 seats during the recent nwa/pilots contract negotiation.

Accordingly, any configuration of a NW airlink a/c cannot exceed 76 seats without being operated by NWA mainline pilots, and NWA mainline Flight Attendants

RC
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