wldtrvlr

THis may be true, but I think we need to see the other side of the coin here also. WP members don't have to pay a $50 to $75 electronic ticket processing fee to book an award ticket within 14 days either as members of OP and SM have too. They might be able to hold our seats for 2 weeks, but we can book theirs at the last minute without some outrageous fee.

Why should change options on award tickets be any different than restricted fare tickets? I don't know, but I don't think that AA and CO let you hold a PAID ticket for two weeks without payment. In air travel, inventory, prices, etc are changing every day. People are generally willing to take the "risk" of changing dates to buy a lower price ticket in advance, why should there be a different benchmark on award tickets? Well actually there is, the fee for changing your mind is half of what the usual fee for paid tickets is.

If I rember correctly if you use rulebuster miles they have basically the same "restrictions" as refundable tickets ie: you can change your mind without penalty and standard awards are similar to "non-refundable" tickets.

Seems to be pretty realistic to me.

keithguy

It's really no different from members booking awards and then cancelling them days or weeks later. The only difference is that NW non Platinum-elites are less likely to do so.

How does allowing for award reservations to be held make inventory management of award seats "hell" and how does it lead to "general disatisfaction among members"? I don't understand.

Firstly, don't sidestep the issue by bringing in other elements which have little relevance to the subject at hand. Secondly, WP members do have to pay a processing fee for e-tickets within 10 days in some cases. It might be helpful to check the website before making such generalizations. Thirdly, what about AS and all the other programs that can redeem for NW award seats? One can throw in a bunch of other unrelated differentiators between WorldPerks, OnePass, and SkyMiles, but the issue still stands.

Why should change options on award tickets be like restricted fare tickets? If AA and CO won't let one hold a PAID ticket for two weeks without payment, then doesn't that suggest that award tickets are not like restricted fare tickets?

The fee, on some other airlines, to change dates on award tickets can be $0, which is much less than half the usual fee for paid tickets. Worldperks seems to treat award tickets like restricted fare tickets, but other airlines don't seem to be.

Yaatri

A confirmed award ticket holds up a seat and makes it unavailable to other WP members. Haven't you heard people complaining about availability? If an award seat goes empty because of not being avialable to those who wanted it, it is a matter of dissatisfaction. Now one may argue that a blocked award seat may lead to an actual sale for lack of availability of an award ticket.

Holding up a seat distorts real demand thus throeing inventory management off.

HeelLaw

Well, there's a charge for that, so in that sense it's totally different.

People can cancel or not fly paid tickets, too...

keithguy

Yes, but allowing members to hold award reservations allows for increased flexibility. So in this case specifically, WP members are dissatisfied while say OnePass or SkyMiles are more satisfied, meaning that the program that doesn't allow for holds is the program that creates "general disatisfaction", right?

I hope you aren't suggesting that the cause of a lack of award availability is because OAL members are allowed to hold award seats. Most major US airline programs allow for award reservations to be held, so that really isn't a factor as to award availability or the lack thereof.

Holding a reservation does not neccessarily mean that the reservation will eventually be cancelled. Many do get ticketed. Holding a seat may 'distort' real demand, but that is demand for an award seat. You may know more about inventory management, but the way I thought it worked was that they allocate X seats to a certain flight and are unlikely to open up more seats until close to the departure date. So again, would you care to explain exactly how allowing OAL members to hold award seats throws off inventory management especially since other airlines are in, more or less, the same situation?

Even if it does throw off inventory management, I don't think it's something on the award redeeming member's mind when redeeming awards, is it? Personally, I don't think about an airline's inventory management system when I hold NW awards.

Exactly. And those people take up seats that others may have wanted - same difference with award seats.

channa

Because award inventory can be such a b*tch, it often takes a few tweaks to build a viable itin. That's what I always assumed the courtesy hold was for.

You don't hold a revenue ticket in the hope a K fare will open up on your return. But you may hold a less desirable award itin, in the hopes that a preferred date, cabin or route opens up during the hold period.

I have always used my hold periods for this purpose, and more often than not, I make a tweak or two before ticketing.

wldtrvlr

Aren't we comparing apples and oranges here? I seem to remember that each airline in the alliance is allotted X number of seats per flight. If that is the case than a DL/OP member holding a seat is taking inventory away from other DL/OP members, not from WP members.

I would have to do a thourough search, but I seem to recall it works something like this.

NW123 is allocated 10 award seats at the 330 day mark

NW might keep 4 of those seats for redemption with WP miles, and give 2 to DL, 2 to CO and 2 to KLM ( I know there are 9 partners now, but many of them have to "request" seats like NW does with CZA so for simplicity we will only use the pre SKYTEAM partners). So if a Skymiles member wants to fly on NW123 he/she can "hold" a seat on that flight with skymiles and that would take 1 seat out of DL's inventory. It would have no effect on the seats that WP members would have access to though. The same would be true if a FD or OP member requested a seat from their program.

So I think that if 3 people requested seats from any of the partners that only the first 2 would receive them unless NW decided to allocate an additional seat to that partner.

You can check it on the various sites, or call the various lines. If you call the OP service center and request NW123 and they say it is not available, and you say "But it is available on NWA.com for award redemption" the agent will tell you well they have access to different inventory than we do.

So I don't think that the OAL passengers are actually "hurting" your availability if you are using WP miles.

The reverse can also be true. If all the seats that NW has allocated to awards are gone, and you have miles on another program, they might still have seats on a NW flight that you could use your other program miles for even though NW has "sold out" of its inventory.

wldtrvlr

I definitly am not claiming to know anything about inventory management, but I think on some flight, and in some classes (specifically WBC) seats are opened up on what appears to be a sporadic or random basis.

Seats definitly are opened up closer to departure on most flights, but I do think that revenue management also watches both the current and historic demand and tries to play a matching game as time goes by. For instance, take the weather in FL this year. Although this is an extreme case, it has applications to other areas. Historically, FL is a very high demand summer and winter route. Less award seats are alloted to these flights during the peak seasons. However, this year with demand dropping way off, they opened up more award seats. I know every time I thought of going it was no problem to get an award seat to Pensacola (an area hit very hard by IVAN).

Other areas where the historical demand (ie. award seats released at 330 days) and the current demand (award seats released later) are divergent, they might release more or less seats as time goes on.

keithguy

It's a fine made-up example and all, but I don't think that's how it works (at least not to the specific degree described). You are, however, more than welcome to that search and prove otherwise. By the way, there are more than nine partner programs that can redeem for NW award seats.

If it's on a sporadic or random basis, then it doesn't matter whether or not award seats can be held or not, right? (Again, why bring up stuff that's not relevant?)

This demand you refer to is the overall demand for seats on a flight, and is not specific to number of award seats already taken (either via held or ticketed reservations). In your example, if award seats had opened up to FL, it didn't really matter how many existing award seats were taken on a flight, did it?

jimc_usa

Assuming that you are correct, then we need to get that changed. Is it too late for RC to inform NW that we are "As mad as hell and we are not going to take it!"

wldtrvlr

Actually it is not a made up example. I have checked with NWA and found flights available for booking with WP miles, and then called CO to use OP miles to book it and been told that flight is not available TO THEM for award redemption since they use a different inventory. So, you not thinking it doesn't work that way does not mean it is so.

My reference to nine partners were Skyteam Partners. I just booked a flight on Czech Air and NW had to "request" the seat since they do not have direct access to Czech Airs inventory. So it would be logical to assume that several of the airlines that can book NWA inventory are not alloted seats on every US flight, but have to request it when a program participant wants to redeem on one of those flights.

keithguy

Reread my post again. I said that it does not work "to the specific degree described". Your example does not prove otherwise. Your example might show that award inventory available to partner programs may be different from award inventory available to WorldPerks, but that doesn't mean that the award inventories are completely segregated.

You are suggesting that an award seat available to WorldPerks members is available only to WorldPerks members and not any other partner airline programs. Your example fails to prove this.

quinella66

Funny thing is that I have seen no better availability for award seats on NW than other airlines. While there is a good chance that I will keep the seats once reserved, why should I risk a $100 fee (2 tix) to use my own miles for a seat if my wife's work will not give her the day off? Maybe if they kept track of customer abuse in this area and just restricted those who abused it, that would be a better policy.

I am switching my miles earning to focus on AA instead, so NW is the loser here. Since I live within reasonable access of ABE, EWR, PHL, or even JFK, no particular airline has a monopoly on my accessible airport(s).

quinella66

If it were easy to get award seats for particular days (like it is easy to book award nights from Starwood), one could request vacation first and then book the awards afterwards.

Because it is like pulling teeth to get an award flight due to capacity controls, it becomes necessary to use a courtesy hold, lest risk having to pay a fee if the exact vacation days are not approved.

The courtesy hold is a problem for NW because they are allotting so few seats to begin with due to capacity controls.

It is the capacity controls that are the root of this problem. And NO, I will not pay double miles to any airline to waive them as long as the award inventory is going to be a hidden system with no outside accountability. For all we know, they can allot NO seats to a flight if they feel that they can get double miles - all the while they advertise these programs based on the standard levels.