When is it time to diversify hotel reward programs? SPG and ...?
 

I'm a frequent traveler and have been ridiculously loyal to Starwood over the past few years and am now closing in at around 300k banked SPG points. I got to the point last week that I drove an extra 30 min in Philly to stay at the Westin downtown rather than a Marriott out by where I was working. It really has been starting to get out of control with the free weekend night promotion even...

Was wondering at what point people have started diversifying. I just used up my last Marriott points today and am realizing that it may be best to build up points in another program for when I need to book non-Starwood hotels for personal stays.

Any suggestions on a good secondary program?

I'd take a look at the places that you travel to mainly and see what hotels are in the area that you might like and are convenient, and then focus on that brand.

I branch out after making sure that I have my Starwood Platinum status renewed for next year. That doesn't mean that I don't stay anywhere else until I have my nights/stays for Starwood, but I at least make sure that I have those nights/stays coming and then branch out to my backup (Hilton).

It's definitely good to have a backup. Starwood hotels just aren't as numerous as other chains are, especially in the lower end hotels and in smaller cities/towns. That having been said, I don't think I would branch out if you are just barely making SPG platinum.

Good point, I cleared the platinum mark a few weeks back (at 64 nights for the year) and so now is probably the right time to look around.

Hilton is my "fall back program" I typically always stay at Starwood even if I have cleared my Plat status. Reason being: the notorious question around here is always "how do they determine who to upgrade?" If you notice, some members here have a very high rate of success while others do not. Who would you give the upgrade to first? Someone who has 25 stays or someone who has 40? So, while it's certainly good to have a secondary program and achieve status with someone else, the more you stay with one, the more perks you are more likely to receive!

But I agree with treznor: check out the cities you usually travel and see who has the strongest presence. I also think it's a personal preference too...I prefer Hilton over Marriott, so I use Hilton as a back up. Just adding my 2 cents!

I have been Starwood loyal for years but am now finding myself switching a lot of business to Hyatt. Although Hyatt has a lot fewer properties than Starwood; I find that even as a mid-tier status (Plat with Starwood) I am treated exceptionally well. It is never the "big" things; but rather the small things that make a difference to me.

I don't feel that Hyatt nickels and dimes me to death as Starwood has started to do and every Hyatt I have visited the staff has been absolutely superb in terms of friendliness and professionalism. As of late it seems that I hear a "yes" more often at Hyatt than the "nos" that I continue to hear so often from Starwood staff these days.

This is not to say that I won't continue to be *wood loyal, I love the program quite a bit, but I have moved business (20 stays so far) to Hyatt. BTW - I am a leisure traveller only this year.

This is an excellent thread for MilesBuzz, since it focuses outside Starwood. I'm going to move it along there.

SanDiego1K
Starwood Moderator

There are many ways you can earn hotel points without staying with them except Hyatt. You can build a rich stack of hotel points through credit card for example. It makes sense to have hotel points from different programs if not just for a greater coverage of available hotels since they are not all represented equally in every city or destination.

In terms of hotel stays, if you are more or less indifferent between two competing hotels in a same city/area, then the tie breaker should come down to their points and promos. In my opinion, SPG is a program that requires a heavier dose of promos in order to remain competitive against other hotel loyalty programs because in terms of relative valuation, the earning/spending power of SPG points earned through stays is quite a bit weaker than others.

See this thread here:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/starw...r-value-2.html

And specifically, my analysis here:

SPG vs. Hilton & Marriott

I started my diversification last summer. I reluctantly find that I have moved away from Marriott to Hyatt. While I have not found an Executive Club at a Hyatt that I felt was worth squat, the rooms have been nice, the hotels well located, and they have been significantly less expensive.

I seem to accumulate Hyatt points faster than Marriott, probably due to the bonus point incentives they like to offer.

Starting from scratch, I'd probably diversify to HH. For one, with their Surpass card, you're Gold out of the chute and if you're willing to stop using your SPG Amex for a bit, you could hit Diamond on card spend alone ($40k per calendar year).

The big benefit to Marriott comes when you hit the Travel Package level - giving you a 1-week stay plus the best "convert-out" option in the industry. But to do that, you'd have to actually make it your primary stay chain and do a year or two worth of Plat-level stays. There aren't many good "convert in" options to Marriott, whereas HH has a very good one from AA.

(In other words, if you choose, your Marriott Travel Package can become 1 Marriott week plus 1 Hilton week plus some AA miles leftover... :))

So it all depends on how much real stay activity you want to move. If you want to stay mainly Starwood but quickly build a balance and a midtier status for backup purposes, just switch spending to the new HH Amex. (There are "good value" HH redemptions in the 4-night AXON award, so if you like shorter stays this is an advantage over Marriott.) If you really want to switch primary stay behavior, call Marriott for a status challenge, get their newest MR Visa product, and start working your way towards your Travel Package.

As others have noted, it depends on your travel patterns. Having said that, I'm happy with HH as my back-up. Hilton has lots of properties all over the country and the world, including some very nice ones abroad (more nice ones abroad than Marriott, though I would still give Starwood the clear edge in terms of deluxe properties overseas).

If you go that route, as pinniped suggested you should get the HH Surpass Amex card because it gets you Gold status at HH (at least for your first years--after that, to retain Gold you need to spend $20K/year and to get to Diamond $40K/year), which in turn gets you free breakfasts at most Hilton properties and a 40K point sign-up bonus. It's worth the $75 annual fee. (Make sure the bonus is included if you do get the card, however.) 40K HH points isn't worthy nearly as much as Starwood points, given the different redemption values for the two companies, but it's still good for a free night at a top property and more at the lower-tier ones. Another advantage of the card is that you can accrue lots of points for purchases at grocery stores, drug stores, gas stations, etc.

Having about a week's worth of banked Hilton points and Hyatt points has saved us thousands of dollars several times traveling last minute and especially overseas and during peak holiday times.

Have never had an issue redeeming, even when our account hasn't quite reached the right level of points (Hyatt) they hold the room, knowing we'd accummulate them by the date of stay. This is in contrast to * wood that will only hold a points "pending" reservation for 7 days, not trusting loyal customers to make good on the points, even with months and months of lead time.

Wow thanks for putting the time in for your analysis. I can appreciate that difference that Hilton seems to give over MR and SPG. I was hoping SPG would be better as I live overseas and like their hotels over Marriott and Hilton. But as someone who loves to accumulate and optimize my points and redemptions I can't ignore Hilton.

For someone like myself, who won't be traveling much for business in the near future, what is considered the best program for credit card spend? I'm also looking to diversify from SPG to give me a few more options. It sounds as if Hilton might be the way to go. As far as I understand, Hyatt doesn't offer any back door point earning opportunities.

The two good general-spend CC choices are SPG and HH.

If you don't plan enough business travel to hit a meaningful elite status the "hard" way, I'd recommend HH since HH Gold has more value than SPG Gold.

Marriott's Visa card is very rewarding when used at the hotels (5 pts/$), but comparatively weak as a general-spend card. It can still be worthwhile if you ever need a standalone free night: each time you pay the $65(?) annual fee, you receive one free night certificate valid up to Category 5. That category covers most mainline Renaissance/Marriotts outside of high-cost cities like NYC, London, etc. I recently used mine for a Washington D.C. night that would have otherwise cost about $120 via Priceline or $250 via Marriott.com.

Thanks for the info. I'll check out the HH cards as I'd like to put some spend towards a different program. SPG is great, but for destinations where they don't have much of a presence it would be nice to have another option.

4
Wow! that got me thinking!

3
I am not sure I agree

2
agreed, for points earned via hotel stays Hilton may be the best, per your calc in #4,

1
but for those of us who do it via cc spend, SPG has best value in redemptions on choice of airlines.

I too have a little spreadsheet somewhere...a little different from Guava's raw numbers but similar in conclusion.

Specifically, the conclusion: someone who actually does a huge number of actual hotel nights gets the biggest bang-for-buck from Hilton or Marriott. (In my analysis, these two were very close - perhaps because I was valuing the Travel Packages a bit higher.)

I've done a similar analysis for credit cards: someone who does few actual hotel nights gets their biggest value from SPG or HH Amex, with the two being very close. (I still give SPG the edge.) Marriott is a very distant third here, although the aforementioned Free Night Certificate still makes their card worthwhile.

The value of hotel points ebbs and flows. 2005-2007 was a prime period for me. Travel demand was up, so paid rates were high. I was able to hit a few special event and peak season redemptions that I could have never done without hotel points. The U.S. dollar was (and still is) weak in a lot of my destinations, further elevating the value of paying with an alternative currency like points.

The problem is that every prime period is followed by a big round of Category Creep, and in this case we also have an overall slowdown in travel demand worldwide. So 2009 is (in general) a lousy year to use hotel points - cheap rooms are too easy to find.

I'll continue to hoard in 2009 and redeem in 2010-2011. That's longer than I usually hold hotel points, but there seems to me to be little risk of a major Category Creep this year. Next year, when demand has rebounded, incredibly good paid promotions will be harder to find. Plus, I don't see the U.S. dollar suddenly getting wickedly strong against other world currencies. Our hotel points will be worth more in that timeframe...

Ack! :eek: I know SPG has a bazillion airline partners, but I'd only do those 1:1.25 transfers as an absolute last resort - as in, you are redeeming an int'l premium cabin award now and you have no other source for those miles.

The points are worth so much more as hotel stays...

Difference in the quality of hotels and service is a significant factor in any traveler's decision making process and should not be ignored in lieu of points and miles. The spreadsheet I posted is merely a narrowly defined view of the miles/points model I kept for hotel points decision making process and does not go into any depth to try to quantify the difference in the quality of hotels in general because such discussion would too complex for a FT discussion, not to mention personal as well. On that, I tend to agree with most FTers in that SPG hotels tend to have the highest quality and service against Hilton or Marriott. Service wise, with two dedicated reps on FT is hard to beat as seen by the vivacity of the SPG forum on FT, simply unbeatable.

It does come down to what your preferred habitat sort to speak. Some people are value oriented and therefore, they tend to like the Hilton brands more with free breakfast, lounge access and etc. Others enjoy the extravagance of SPG with its Suite upgrade and VIP like treatment more when you are a SPG Platinum or VIP. I am more a value oriented person, hence extravagance does little for me. YMMV

The HH AMEX offers double points (i.e. 6 pts per $ spent) on everyday purchases such as groceries, gas, wireless/home phone, cable/satellite TV, drug stores and internet. I love this card and it's also fee free if you choose the standard AMEX, not the Surpass card. SPG AMEX doesn't have similar features and there is an annual fee.

At 6 pts per $ spent on everyday purchases, this beats the SPG AMEX hands down.

I feel obliged to mention the caveats of the posted spreadsheet. The calc shown were done with some narrowly defined assumptions which may or may not apply to your personal situation. Would you ever spent $100,000 on hotel stays and if so, within what timeframe? If you choose to double dip on an airline partner with HHonors, would it necessarily be BD? The $100K assumption was used to demonstrate the calc, it could have been $10,000 but then the number would be too small for computing Marriott travel packages, hence making the comparison incomplete. While BD offers 1,000 miles per night up to 3 nights within a stay and its miles have some of the best value for money - for someone who doesn't ever leave the country, its value may be under-appreciated. Someone told me recently his double dip partner is Southwest, an airline that I have personally never set foot on and likely never will, so again, YMMV. From a financial standpoint, choosing BD makes the most sense numbers wise, from an objective standpoint but some folks may not appreciate that due to their personal circumstances. For me, even if you live in the U.S., you can make great use of BD miles by getting award tickets on UA and US, hence I don't understand why someone would want to put miles to Southwest instead but then again, not everyone likes the Marriott travel package either since it reduces the number hotel nights they can have and they may not want airline miles at all because they have more than enough already.

Or perhaps your HH double dip partner assumption wasn't BD, in which case, it would reduce the value of your HH awards overall quite significantly. In the past two months or so, I racked up over 60,000 BD miles thanks to the HHonors Q2 promo on some 20 hotel nights only. This translates into roughly 5 return trips within North America and the Carribbean/Mexico in First/Business class award on UA, US and AC (11,250 miles + 75 GBP cash for each trip + a total of rougly 20~40 GBP in taxes/airport fees per trip). Clearly, you need to have experience with BD in order to appreciate the amazing value it can bring and this cannot be learned overnight. It's not just what's on paper, it's also how to deal with BD's ICC which is an art form on its own. ;)

I don't agree with this, the SPG AMEX's lack of double point features on everyday purchases + an annual fee signifcantly cut against its overall attractiveness.

While the 6 pts/$ on everday purchases might be better for some/most people, I spend about 25x-50x more each month on items that don't qualify as everyday purchases. Basically I'd be earning mostly at the regular 2 pts/$ level for the majority of my spend. And when you compare point redemption for free stays it appears that SPG requires less for a comparable hotel (I used Hawaii as a starting point and saw that it would take about 20k points with Hilton as opposed to 12k to 16k for a comparable SPG property. That said, I'm still inclined to pick up a HH Visa as a backup/diversification to my everyday SPG Amex. But for me at least, SPG still looks like the best bet.

Actually, it's 3 pts/$, not 2 pts/$. If you can use SPG AMEX with a merchant, to be fair, the comparsion must be used against the HH AMEX, not the HH VISA which very few people on FT even bother with that card.

If the redemption is for a single night, the SPG Cash and Points, if available would indeed provide better value in most cases. Otherwise, the cost of a SPG Cat. 5 award which ranges between 12~16K SPG points as you stated is equivalent to 36~48K HH points. However, in most cases, you will not need more than 40K HH points for a one night stay with HHonors on Hawaii. So if you spend $16,000 on your SPG AMEX that gives you 16,000 SPG points; by spending the same amount of money on HH AMEX on the standard 3 pts/$, this will give you 48,000 HH points. Therefore, I am not sure how you come to your conclusion re: Hawaii. Plus, the HHonors VIP awards give you 6 nights in Hawaii for 175,000 HH points or the equivalent of spending $58,333 on regular non-double points purchases. SPG's 5th night free for a Category 5 requires a spending between $48,000~$64,000 on your SPG AMEX. Note, the SPG award is actually one night less than HH. Hence, on a per night basis, the opportunity cost is $9722 for HH AMEX or between $9600 ~ $12800 for SPG AMEX.

Hence, re: Hawaii, my answer is I think the two are quite comparable in terms of cost of award redemptions.

I mistakely assumed that the HH Amex had the same earning power as the Visa...I did a search for HH Honors Credit Card or similar and the info on the VISA came up. Glad to hear that the Amex version offers 3 points/$. That does indeed make it comparable to the SPG Amex. Wonder why the VISA has a lower point earning rate?

Citi issues the HHonors VISA and must share the processing fees with VISA. American Express operates its own processing network -and- charges higher transactions fees than VISA.

Ok, that makes sense. It's too bad though, as a HH Visa (at 3 pts/$) would have been a great 2nd card to carry along with my SPG Amex. All too often I get rejected (by the vendor) when I try to place an order on my Amex...and as of now I go to my Citi AA MC. It kills me when I lose out on 50k or 100k Starpoints in one shot. So the HH Amex won't work as a backup, but rather another option to diversify my spending with. Nothing wrong with that.

True, but "everyday purchases" end up representing a small fraction of my total spend. If I used the HH Amex for everything, my blended earning rate would probably be 3.2 or something.

Of course, I do carry both cards in my wallet, so there's no reason I couldn't do HH Amex for the right categories.

All of that said, the annual fee represents a tiny fraction of the overall value of the card in any given year. For HH, I'm moving up to Surpass in late '09 to begin using it as my primary card on Jan 1, 2010. Diamond status at HH is very much worthwhile.

My original point was that I generally get slightly more value out of 1 Starpoint than 3 (or 3.2...or even 3.5 or whatever) HHonors points. Don't get me wrong - I love HHonors points - it's just that I can get big returns out of very small SPG redemptions, whereas HH points are generally utilized in 175k+ chunks.

In this case, you may want to consider the Charles Schwab 2% cash back VISA. You get 2% back straight from all your purchases.

http://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/...?#cash_rewards

The 2% cash back is roughly equivalent to the real cost of 1 SPG point or 3 HH points IMO, plus as cash earns interests while points don't, it may work out better for some people. Plus, this card has the benefit of charging 0% transaction fee on foreign amounts, which is another plus in the view of many people.

With this card, what you can do is when you decide you need some HH points; or SPG points for that matter, you can go to the Coupon Connection section of FT, posts an offer for HH/SPG or whatever by offering a FT approved giftcard in return. You will find that most transactions will take place around $0.02 per SPG point or $0.0067 per HH point. However, due to inconsistent liquidity and the timing of the trade, this may or may not hold true and you may be a little patient with such an offer.

Thanks. That card seemed like a great option when I first heard about it. But then someone posted the terms and conditions which stated that it was not eligible for business purchases. Now I am curious to know whether they actually enforce that...but I guess they could certainly assume that $50k in circuit board assemblies, thermal flashers or similar is likely not intended for personal use. :)

Too much of Presidential $1 coins perhaps? ;)

Yes, that's what I do. I only use the HH AMEX for eligible double point purchases and HH stays, which earn 9 pts per $ on my surpass card.

On this, I tend to agree. Given a choice between 1 SPG point or 3 HH points, I'd pick SPG for its flexibility and transferability. What it comes down to is how it is earned. Personally, for domestic purchases that do not earn bonus points, I prefer the Asiana AMEX by B of A:

https://www6.bankofamerica.com/credi...100121977EN000

In short, this card earns 2 miles / $ on all purchases, no catch, no cap, straight and simple. Plus, the card pays for up to $100 per year when you book your ticket with Asiana, a Star Alliance member and it gives you an annual 10,000 miles discount when redeeming miles. In other words, when you make award redemption, say a one-way ticket from US to say, China in First class on Asiana, the normal cost of the award is 75,000 miles (150K / 2), minus the annual 10K miles discount coupon = 65K miles. Any airport fee, taxes and surcharges, which is likely within $100 and therefore paid by B of A as a credit on your statement. With no cash outlay, this ticket is one of the few cases of "Free" award ticket. Plus, the opportunity cost of earning 65K miles is only 65K /2 = spending of $32,500 This amount would earn 32,500 SPG points and at the 1.25 transfer ratio, still falls short of the earning power of the Asiana AMEX. IMO, this card is under-rated on FT but I am not complaining, really, I prefer it that way so there is no stampede.

On this, you need to take it up with Charles Schwab and verify/confirm yourself. I am not aware of such clause, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It sounds like you are running a business and many FTers are in your situation as well. I'd ask around and see how they manage. In your case, you have to consider the float and the grace periods and etc. more carefully but I assume you know that already.

re: Asiana. In addition to that being a solid card, I actually like their award chart. Doing the mileage math, a typical MCI-Europe routing would be 80k in J and 110k in F before discounts. Plus, I'm assuming I wouldn't get Starnet blocked, so that'd be LH across the pond, not UA. ^

Even though I still consider 1 SPG point worth more than 2 air miles, there comes a point at which I'm too awash in hotel points and can always use more miles. I'm half thinking about adding this card to pick up an easy *A J award before and/or after I make my HH Diamond run with the Surpass card.

Does the signup bonus ever get juicier than 5k?

Nice tip on the BD/HH bit earlier, BTW. I used to have a consistent series of one-night stays at various lower-cost HHonors properties. Wish I had 'em now...I'd love to be loading up on BD miles.

Yep, 70K in J class award to Europe is unheard of these days. Plus, don't forget SQ across the pond as well, it's much better than LH IMO. Here is another tip for you. AF's FB often runs regular promotional discounts on their transatlantic redemption in J and Y. You can usually fly KLM from U.S. to anywhere in Europe return for only 50K miles. If so, the opportunity cost is only 40K SPG points or if you are willing to trade, you can get it down to about 32~33K SPG points on coupon connection. If so, you can do slightly better than the opportunity cost of $35K of Asiana 70K award to Europe (after 10K mileage discount). That's another option if you are currently awash in SPG points but do not have many Asiana miles. Be warned though, fuel surcharges are still very high with AF/KL.

Can't help you here, this is obviously a personal decision.

Never heard of anything better than 5K sign up bonus and frankly, it is not a consideration IMO.

The beautiful thing about the HH/BD arrangement is that you don't need those one-night stays, which can be quite a bit of a hassle. You earn 1,000 miles per night, not per stay, so long as the duration is no more than 3 nights. That translated into 9,000 miles per stay + all the HH points & bonus in the most recent Q2 promo - worked like a charm for me.