If you are only saving a couple hundred bucks then your Y itinerary isn't complicated enough. ;)

I have redeemed for two international Y rewards recently. The first was EWR-AMS-IST//IST-CDG-SOU//BRS-EWR. That ticket was $2200 to purchase and the reward routing I got was fully flexible as I am a CO Platinum meaning no change fees. I was able to tweak the flights and the schedule a few times and avoid change fees. That is certainly worth the points, IMO. I probably could've found it with seats up front on the long-hauls segments, but they weren't really that long (~6 hours each) and I'd rather save my points as I can take another trip to Europe with them. The second reward I booked was EWR-CDG-CPH//OSL-AMS-EWR. Not quite as high a value on that ticket, but I put the return segments in J because it is a nice treat every now and then and because Y wasn't available at standard rates. :D

Neither of those tickets are just a "few hundred bucks" in savings.


This is certainly a relevant point. I do not fly long haul every week or even every month (though this year is starting to shape up that way every month ^), and most of my "long-haul" trips are TATL from NYC. Suffice it to say that my needs are much different than a weekly TPAC passenger.

Again, ultimately the definition of "value" will vary. One can easily say that it is just cash equivalent. Or it might be something else. It is very hard for any group of people to agree on a definition of something that is subjective. That's why many folks here focus on cash value, as it is easy to measure and reasonably consistent to define. That does not mean that it is the "right" way to value points, but it certainly is the simplest and steadiest.

"this common fallacy that using your FF miles for economy fares is not getting the best value out of them" is what you said, and was what I was querying. No one generally questions then for long haul travel, and you have made no distinction.

This thread illustrates how differently people view travel. Many things go into one's choice of what value to put on class of service.

I know a couple of people who have no issue whatsoever with flying longhaul Y. I asked one of them hypothetically, if money were no object at all, how much he would spend to upgrade to F from a middle seat in Y, between strangers, on a LAX-SYD nonstop. He said not a penny - we all arrive at the same time.

Another does DFW-LGW several times a year. He gets a reasonable amount of miles, but does not qualify for any sort of free upgrade. Every third or fourth trip is very short notice, and it amazes me how often he ends up in a middle seat. I have asked him about using miles to upgrade, and he is aghast. Again, he is a very practical person, and the miles mean more to him for more trips than they would for upgrades. He just sits in his middle seat and goes about his business.

I'm not like that at all. If a long-haul upgrade were within my budget ($ or miles) - I would take it, with certain exceptions, like knowing the Y cabin were empty (often preferable to being in J or F, especially if the food/IFE/seats are not first rate), or being in a set of two seats (window/aisle) with my wife - tolerable, but still uncomfortable on really long hauls.

Basically, it would take an extraordinary set of circumstances for me to get on a 6+ hour full flight, in a Y middle seat, between strangers. If that ended up as my only option, in most cases I would not go. Domestically, I'd probably do it, but would not be a happy camper. For most domestic travel I'm fine with Y, although I would upgrade on transcons, etc. if the value proposition (buzzword alert!) were right.

As for the wisdom of using miles in certain situations, Y is fine, Y is great - unless you are using 25K or 50K miles for a flight on which a ticket would be $129 or something. That seems to be very questionable, unless of course it is the only option someone has at the time.

Well....

Whaddaya expect? It's BRITISH Air.

From the country that divides itself into "Lords" and "Commoners."



( :D )

jedem das seine - to each their own
 

i have to agree with the view that everybody values his/her miles differently and therefore considers a different redemption to be a 'good' value.

there is so much that goes into it: how many miles you have, how many you earn, how you earn them, how often you fly, how you cope with the discomfort in coach, where want to redeem, how often and when. you could go on forever.

i, personally, always redeem for coach awards to Europe. but i can understand how someone else would only want to redeem for business/first.

One factor denigrating the value of Y awards in many programs (many
US carriers are a notable exception) are the YQ surcharges they impose. For AC, I can fly to London for less than $1,000 if I time it right or almost 70K points (60K base, plus about an additional 10K of lost status miles) plus $491 in fees. So the true cash savings can be pretty small - about 1/2 to 2/3 cent per mile.

But the value of points depends on the person - how many points they earn, how many people they want to bring along (a semi-large family might well require elite status or paying double miles to force a seat), whether you are one of the lucky people able to sleep anywhere, anytime, etc... I would only redeem for Y where the surcharge doesn't exist or is small unless I was facing my points expiring unused. But someone with a program that doesn't impose YQ might well value a European trip every year with their spouse rather than only able to have enough points for a J seat and go every second year. I know some people who fly J but happily stay in the hotel equivalent of Y-- and people who believe the opposite is value for money.

Believe it or not, there have actually been numerous threads on the "best" use of miles on many of the forums here on FT! ;)

Some years back, I finally realized that the choice of how to redeem my miles was NOT a simple mathematical calculation based solely on the retail value of the flight(s) purchased with them. My use of miles has become situational -- e.g., if on a particular flight I can't get a reasonable cash price, I might look for an award ticket (even a Standard rather than a Saver) instead (for leisure travel). Nothing wrong with using miles for domestic economy class -- of course, I always do a comparison of the cash price vs. the cost in miles.

Or, sometimes I even redeem miles for (shock of shocks) merchandise -- even though I realize I'm getting a low cash value (approx. $ 0.006, i.e., 6/10 of one cent, per mile). For Christmas of 2007, I purchased a bunch of VERY NICE Christmas gifts using miles and was happy not to be spending the cash (:eek:) for them. (Some of the gifts were even for myself and I was very pleased with them.)

As for the (theoretical) highest value award tix, i.e., international premium cabin flights, I no longer redeem miles for those, as I don't earn status miles (EQMs) for them, and it would therefore be too difficult to maintain my United 1K status. Instead, I use my SWUs to upgrade economy class tix that I've purchased for cash.

Bottom line, I spend my miles however I please ;) . I like to burn miles every year, because I think hoarding them is generally a bad idea.

and that really is the bottom line...
a few years ago, my son went to work in New Orleans during the Katarina mess, working for a private contractor who was working with fema. For a few weeks, he had to live in a tent in cold weather, deal with politics of power, this was his first time away in such situation, and was feeling very down. I decided to go visit him and cheer him up a little, flts to NO were out of sight, only thing was to do a anytime award for 50k points, I did not hesitate. No one would call it a good use of points, one could call me nuts for doing that but my son needed some comfort and there is no price anyone can put on that. To me it was a very good use of points.

Regarding the thought that if you are not poing to pay for first call travel, then computing the value of such award is meaningless. That is purely mathematical. I dont't want to or can not pay for first class but that does not mean I don't want to travel in first class. My once a year longhaul vacation trips are in first class and there is no value or price I can put on it because to me they are priceless!

I am an example of this time shift. When I joined FT several years ago, I would never have redeemed for premium cabin travel for myself, as it was not worth it. Now I will, due to a combination of greater disposable income, an acquired taste/appreciation for premium cabins, and physically being less fit/finding it harder to sleep in economy.

At that point in time, the $ value to myself of the upgrade was less than the $ value to myself of the additional miles required.

Now, the $ value to myself of international upgrades has increased to a level over the the $ value of the miles difference to myself.




It is pointless to try to put a universal $ value on an upgrade or the miles one holds.

(I am including the choice of redeeming for a business class ticket over economy in my loose use of the term upgrade here)

However, most everyone will benefit from using the same formula to make their choice of when to upgrade.



The formula:

1) Calculate what your miles are truly worth to you.

Miles have value to everyone, primarily based on opportunity cost. If you do X with your miles, you will not be able to do Y. No one has an infinite supply of miles and anyone who says they ascribe no value to them because they earn more than they use needs to seriously consider the value of donating these miles to a charity they respect/friends/family. For some, donating to a charity would be your opportunity cost, for others giving to friends/relatives who need ticket. For many it is what else you could do with the miles for yourself/family.


2) Calculate what an upgrade is worth to you.

THIS IS ALMOST NEVER THE $ FIGURE THE AIRLINE WOULD CHARGE.

IT IS THE MAXIMUM $ FIGURE YOU WOULD ACTUALLY PAY FOR THE UPGRADE IF IT WERE AVAILABLE FOR THIS PRICE.

For a few, this would be a similar amount to what the airline charges.

For many, it will be a little less, for many others it will be not much of an increase over the cost of coach/economy.


3) Compare the value of miles required to you with the value of an upgrade to you.



Stated as a universal, NO.

There are MANY reasons (cost/work policy/schedule/route network/upgrade availability/upgrade cost/etc) why a savvy traveler would regularly fly and upgrade on an airline with a lesser premium cabin.

IF the value of the upgrade to a particular traveller "on most US or other airlines with inferior J & F products" is greater than the value of the additional miles required for upgrade to that particular traveler, the traveller would be foolish not to upgrade!
Again, stated as a universal, NO.

Why should a traveller who truly values (what he would pay) an F seat $2000 over an excellent J seat not pay miles this traveller correctly values at $1000 for this upgrade?

Product does not matter; individual value of that upgrade versus individual value of the miles does.
Your FF accounts are assets like bank accounts and other financial investments. When you use those FF miles to go to Australia, you are loosing the ability to redeem them on other tickets you paid cash for instead of the cash, the ability to donate them to a charity instead of a cash donation, the ability to give them to friends family instead of the present you spent cash on, etc.
For you, the opportunity costs may be such that miles are worth 1 cent each to you, in which case using 120K of them for business class would the equivalent of paying $1200 for business class. If you would jump at the opportunity to spend $1200 for business class and have calculated the value of the miles to you to be $1200, you should jump at the chance to use $1200 worth of miles for that trip.


YES! ^
I am suggesting the only relevant dollar value proposition uses $ figures that take the individuals values into account.
It should be noted that many savvy redeemers get excellent value from redeeming miles domestically. Especially with an airline like AA that allows both a stopover and an open jaw on a 25K domestic redemption without restricting the stopover city choice and not charging YQ on redemptions.

The average domestic redemption, however, doesn't represent a high $ value per mile redeemed. On the other hand, for an individual who does not value international travel and does not value giving miles to those who do, a domestic coach redemption could be the most savvy use for their miles.
This would be the majority of the non Flyertalk type, as well as many here.

Most people do not use their miles in the way that would maximize their value for them (due to lack of a complete understanding of their options and the opportunity costs involved).
I am suggesting there is a right (most rational) way to value points and miles.

The computation does involve cash values, however these cash values are individually determined, not based on an irrelevant $ amount charged by an airline (that would never be paid by the individual in question).

Just a couple points:

1. The reason that the BA forum specifically derides people who use miles for a Y redemption is because of the astronomical fees and taxes. When these add up to almost $500 sometimes, it's a joke to use miles. This point is missing from the OP's original post. Using miles no longer means a "free" ticket for most programs. But some programs are indeed better than others. If you truly can get a $1000 Y ticket for only $40, that's an AMAZING use of miles. However, the reality for many is very different.

2. The only time you actually "save" money by using miles is when you otherwise would have paid for the ticket. When I used miles to fly NYC-DTW for a wedding that I had to go to, I actually saved the $300 I would have had to pay for a revenue ticket. A month later when I flew to HKG on a whim using miles first class on Cathay Pacific, I did not "save" the $25,000 ticket price, because I never would have paid that to begin with.

3. Use of miles depends on how cash poor/rich and how miles poor/rich you are at the time of booking. I may choose to use miles for a cheapo ticket one month because I've overspent my discretionary income that month, but the next month purchase the same ticket for cash.

4. STATUS MILES. Honestly, when I travel on award tickets, a part of my heart breaks knowing that I won't be earning any miles for those flights. Using miles to upgrade, however, you still earn miles while traveling in style.

5. Life is short and it's not always about making the best fiscal decisions. Do I NEED to fly in biz or first? No. Actually, scratch that. I do. And the only way I can consistently do it without going bankrupt is to use miles for upgrades and premium cabin redemptions.

So, what's the moral of the story? If you're using miles for Y redemptions on airlines like BA let me buy you the Y ticket and give me the miles.

EXCELLENT POINTS!

The Big European 3, (LH, AF, and BA) are among the worst airlines when if comes to free tickets, as they tack very large fuel surcharged onto all redemption tickets. AA, UA, and other US airlines are among the best for free tickets as they generally only charge government mandated taxes when redeeming.

While I understand your point, do you want to take me up on your offer?

I usually redeem my BA miles for one-way COACH tickets between the USA and Camerooon, Africa.

Sample routing:
NSI-SN-BRU-BA-LHR-BA-ORD

Lowest cost to buy ticket with $ (on any European carrier) = ~$1900 USD (lowest season)

BA miles cost per ticket: 40,000 BA miles + ~$300 USD fees


You take my BA miles and buy me tickets. Deal?

Re: OP. I'm a lifetime member of the "free travel" side of the debate, but I don't downplay the arguments made by the upgraders. If you do a lot of biz travel, rack up a lot of miles and have limited vacation time per year, taking the S.O. to Europe on an upgrade for the vacation would make sense. I've nearly always been on my own dime and with tighter funds than time, so using miles on upgrades has always seemed too rich.

I think the optimal thing on the free travel side is to find and go to spots on the alliance network that are expensive to reach on paid fares. My mileage-value benchmark for comparison is about 1.5 cents. Favorite trips on awards have included most of Continental's spots in Micronesia and about half of Air New Zealand's in the South Pacific. Alaska at 25K from ATL also seems like good value, and have used mileage sales in the past for HKG for 25K RT, BKK for 40K and DUS for 20K (if only they'd bring back any of those!)

With my "out-of-the-way-places" strategy it's important to have an appreciation for doing that sort of thing, which I realize not everyone has. Though it can be quite a contrast going between Hawaii, where some places seem overrun with people, to Pohnpei, where getting up a group for a boat tour is sometimes a challenge when the total tourist numbers wouldn't fit into a single 737.

As a rule of thumb, if you run into missionaries you're probably also off the beaten track.

If I am traveling for leisure and have no plans maintaining (or attaining) status for the year, then I would be more inclined to side with the OP.

However, if my goal is to attain/maintain status, then I will pay economy fare (and if I can upgrade using points or an upgrade certificate, then great).

For me it's not so much a cost of miles spent but an issue of how comfortable/amount of sleep I am going to be on x flight. I'm 6'2" and anything over 7 hours continuous in Y is :(.
My strategy is to use miles to upgrade on long haul only. I rather be fresh on arrival as it takes a couple days to catch up now.
So I work on the 7 hour rule. If it's under I purchase the ticket in Y and don't spend miles upgrading. Over 7 hour, buy Y & upgrade or buy C.