Am I finally getting it?
 

This is based on USAir experience, but I think it's pretty universal.

I've been on FT almost a year. I've learned a lot, and still finding out more.

There's no such thing as just "a ticket" - every ticket has a fare class, rules, etc.

There are the real el cheapos - e-savers, internet specials, etc. Typically limited availability, heavy restrictions. On a trip US-London, maybe $300-$350

The ordinary cheapos (US "V" class) is a bit more expenseve, but available continuously. Typically not upgradeable. Maybe $400-$450.

Then come the more desirable classes (US "K", "H", ec.). Upgradeable from "day of" to 7 days out (platinum). Maybe $500-$550.

There's another cheap class (US "B")which is upgradeable on the spot. Maybe $ 600.

Was booking a flight for myself and my wife to London. I have some SWUs and wanted to use them up. The res agent led me through some fares, and was able to locate a "B" fare for us. Cool. Then I asked about my SIL - could she buy the same ticket and maybe I could upgrade her with my miles? Sure. 10K per leg.

That's when the light went on.

I have a choice of buying award seats (80K for biz class) or buying a "B" fare and upgrading with miles (20K).

It strikes me that this is probably the most efficient use I can make of my miles. I can probably come up with an amount like $600 once or twice a year and dump in some miles for the upgrade - I even get miles for the trip (in my case, 100% bonus, so with 3500 miles one way I would bag 14000 miles, for a net cost of only 6000 miles). I could stretch my miles almost forever this way.

Am I going down the wrong road, or am I just learning something that everyone else thinks is too obvious to mention?

I mean, we all like "free", but completely free (award) will drain my balance a whole lot faster than mileage upgrades.

Enquiring minds want to know.

There are a lot of people who only redeem upgrade awards or free tickets for family.

You get much more bang for your buck with upgrades than with free tickets. I have rarely redeemed miles for a free ticket for myself. This is why I will never fly WN!

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Vasant

[Edited for typo]

[This message has been edited by vasantn (edited 10-13-2003).]

For my travel needs it has always been obvious that upgrades are the best use of miles.

I don't think this is universal across airlines. For example, international upgrades on UA are NOT cheap to buy using miles.

First of all, in UA Economy, only H, M, B, Y fares are upgradeable using miles.

The ONE-WAY upgrade price for B and Y (the most expensive economy class) fares on flights from North America to Europe, South America, Asia, or Australia is 15,000 miles. For H and M fares the ONE-WAY upgrade price is 30,000 miles (also applies for Biz to First upgrade).

That same 60,000 miles on the round trip, OR LESS, will get you an Economy Saver Award to those same destinations! (Only 50,000 to Europe or South America.)


Kathy

It all comes down to what dollar value you mentally assign to your favorite award. Most people decide how much a mile is worth by dividing the number of miles required into the dollar value of their favorite award.

I've never been one to refuse an upgrade, but am a dyed-in-the-wool free-travel redeemer (the kind who wants to try to use awards to see as much of the world as possible). The U.S.-to-Asia free coach RT is my valuation benchmark (currently around 1.5 cents a mile). Other favorite redemptions include September in Alaska on 25K miles, intra-Micronesia awards on CO for 25K, and intra-SE Asia on TG or SQ through UA at 20K. Stopovers and open jaws also are a big part of the strategy, and I really like being able to use miles on obscure monopoly routes where paid tickets are very costly.

But many people go for the upgrades, and after a few long rides in back on some planes I can start to see why - especially if you're very limited on annual vacation time but have plenty of miles.

You'll find the whole range of people on FT, though.

Biglar

I think you may have cracked it.

For many with a reasonable amount of miles upgrades are the best use. For others with a lot of miles F tickets are the way foward. I can't see the point myself in burning them on Y tix

Upgrades for myself (paid tickets build status miles) and award tickets for companion(s).

I respectfully disagree.

What I have discovered is that to take advantage of ffm upgrades you have to spend 125%-140% or more of the lowest coach economy fare. Then the upgrades you use typically cost 50% of the ffms you must spend for an outright business class ticket. It's a waste of money and ffms.

An example. We recently traveled from/to SFO/AUA [Aruba]. The lowest cost restricted advance purchase economy class ticket was running $700 or more. The cost of a ffm economy class ticket was 30K ffms. The cost of a ffm business class ticket [really a first class ticket because the aircraft used only offered two classes of service] was 60K miles. We opted for the 60K mile outright business class ticket.

We had some friends we were meeting [traveling the very same routing as us] who wanted to use ffms to upgrade from coach class so they could accrue the miles attendant to their coach class travel [about 7K round trip]. They had to spend over $1,100/ticket for a higher priced economy class ticket to use 30K ffms/each [15K ffms each way] to upgrade to business class. Thus our friends in essence paid $1,100 for 30K ffms; a terrible conversion rate in my opinion.

If you're going to use ffms to upgrade, in my opinion you're far better off just redeeming enough ffms to secure a business class ticket outright rather than purchasing an upgrade. I know of no program where it costs you less than 50% of a plan ahead business class ticket and the unnecessary higher cost you must pay for the additional 50% of travel is just not worth the tariff!

The biggest bang for your buck is purchasing business class outright with ffms!

The prices you use aren't even close to my experience with United for upgradeable tickets with miles. I have never purchased a ticket class to Europe I could upgrade.

A majority of my travel is UA from SFO-Europe. Typically from SFO-LHR or AMS a very cheap ticket is in the $400-550 range. The lowest priced upgradeable ticket with miles is typically $1000-1,500+. (Recently fares are lower, but I am basing this on average prices of the past 4 years when I purchased 20+ tickets.)

3 tickets at $500 = 80,000 miles earned = 1 business class ticket redeemed.
On average 1 or 2 one-way complimentary upgrades to business at the check-in desk (without an SWU) for every three roundtrip flights.

4 trips to Europe with 1 guaranteed business class and maybe 2 in business class if I am lucky and 37,500 status miles.

If I chose to upgrade with miles, then $1500 for one paid ticket in H class = 12,500 status miles, 25,000 miles earned, 40,000 miles burned (on the old charts from past two years; 60,000 miles now). One C class trip to Europe and negative mileage balance, and 1/3 of the status miles.

Let's say I could get H class fare for $750 (wishful thinking), then $1,500 = 2 tickets in H class, 25,000 status miles, 50,000 base miles and 80,000 miles burned (again using the old charts, 120,000 miles now). I have a negative balance of 30,000 miles, and less status miles.

That is why I have purchased 20+ cheap economy tickets to Europe and redeemed a lot of miles for business and first class tickets to Europe.

If the other airlines are allowing upgrades at the lower cost booking fares mentioned above, then I need to look into changing my carrier.

while redeeming 25K miles for domestic tix just to go from point A to point B is not the most efficient way to use your miles, when you throw in the one allowable stopover on either outbound or inbound leg, plus one allowable open jaw, your 25K tix suddenly becomes a lot more valuable.

most of our domestic travels involved coast to coast, we seldom redeem our miles for that because lots of time one can get a cheapo tix for $250 or less. the time we redeem 25K planAAhead w/ AA is when we plan for a stopover, and sometimes also need an open jaw. we used to travel to LAX on award tix, took off from there to Pacific region for a 2-week trip on a paid tix, back to LAX, continued our journey on the award tix, to our "final" destination either in Canada or somewhere else in U.S., spend a few days, then return home. the journey we traveled on award tix, if priced as paid tix, usually ran $600+. couple years ago we made a trip to Alaska, then to Seattle from there we went to Vancouver ... all on award tix, travelled on AA and AS. The AAdvantage desk agent was very good and very patient to find out we can go to SEA from ANC with 25K award, vs 40K award if we go to YVR. The routing if on paid tix, would be close to $800.

When you actually put a $ value on your "potential" redemption, you can then see which way is the most efficient way to use your miles. jmho.

Yes, you are getting it. I used to fear I wasn't getting it. Then I realized that the majority of those who post here have status with an airline and their employer pays for most of their travel. If you don't fit that description, scrutinize the advice you get on this board. For a lot of folks, cash rebate cards can make more sense, especially if you fly routes on which it is hard to redeem awards.

On UA award tix, stopovers or open jaws are NOT permitted on U.S. domestic flights (except continental U.S. to Hawaii). In fact, they are ONLY permitted as follows: "between the continental U.S. and Hawaii or between the U.S. and the Caribbean, Asia, Australia, New Zealand, Central and South America or Europe" (from UA website). Also, it's "one stopover en route to your final destination or one open jaw," not BOTH. Of course, Star Alliance awards have a different set of rules than UA awards.

It's dangerous to make generalizations to ALL airlines based on your experience with one airline.


Kathy

Clearly, the prices make a difference. If the upgradeable fare is too much, then a full award ticket is probably better. The prices I gave were those from the website or given to me by a res agent.

I'm just taking this as another tool in my bag, since, like most things in this airline world, everything is a case-by-case basis. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Really, to each his own. I have accrued millions of miles, but have never used miles to upgrade. There have always been other ways to upgrade on UZ.

I have given countless tickets to friends and family. As a result, the balance I carry s always low. And of course, if I can buy a cheap ticlet I will.

Well, I know what I went through to get miles for my F tix (you know, too http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif ). I doubt if I'll be able to do it again, so I'm looking at the possibility of upgrading, etc. I don't have any inherent bias against paying cash/upgrading with miles, just hadn't looked at it much before.

BTW, I know you have a lot of miles, but one or two F tix to OZ (BA - nearly a half million miles per) would surely put a serious dent in your stash!

I think you've cracked it for that airline for that route. I flew US for a few years and we went to Europe three times using this strategy. Those SWU's are generous: unfortunately no other airline gives them out to the low-level members.

On each airline the strategy is slightly different, but if you can take advantage of a low upgradable coach fare to Europe, the same concept generally applies. On AA, those $300 fares have in the past been upgradable, but the mileage requirement is higher.

LAST MINUTE TICKETS! It does make sense to use miles when purchasing a last minute/short haul ticket. UA does not charge an extra fee for last minute award tickets. I say "short haul" because the miles you are losing by flying an award ticket are negligible.

Example:
A last minute SF0-BUR can cost $500 and would only earn you 1,000 status miles. Burn 25k miles and save the $500 for your next SFO-LHR (earn over 20k miles).

20k miles on CO, Tijuana to EZE. Saved myself close to $800 (price from LAX) and get a stopover in PTY.

Now my next mission is from SAN to JNB/CPT with flyer miles. That'll save me $1500 or there abouts. I'll obtain that sometime next year.

It all depends what you value. I'd rather fly coach and fly to JNB for free. Others would suck it up, pay the $$ and fly in F.

Last Minute tickets are still a good deal if they're to be found.

For a completely fair comparison why are you not including the use of SWU's, which most airlines allocate to their highest tier FF's. On DL, for example, you would receive 6 upgrades saving you 90 to 120,000 miles per year. Anything above that you are out of pocket.

I only fly overseas 3 - 4 times a year but I have not spent 1 mile on intn'l upgrades in the last 7 years, and have had to sit in the back only twice, both due to last minute schedule/routing changes.

"Am I finally getting it?"??

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

Runningshoes - The discussion is on upgrading with miles or upgrading with SWUs based on buying a higher fare booking class. United changed their rules this year so that an SWU can only be used to upgrade an H class or higher fare.

My same argument applies. I can spend $1500 on 3 economy trips to Europe in the off-season and have 37,500 status miles and 75,000 miles in my account because I get a 100% bonus. I can redeem the miles for a summer business class seat.

Or I could spend $1,500 for one H class summer fare and upgrade with an SWU and have 12,500 status miles and 25,000 miles in my account. I pay my own way and I wouldn't be traveling nearly as much if I paid more for a ticket to upgrade.

United 1K SWUs have been wonderful, But I am sitting on SWUs I haven't been able to use this year with the new rules. They issued an additional 4 SWUs in August valid on low international fares. I upgraded about 3/4 of my 20+ international trips over the past few years. I flew much more than what I could cover in SWUs. Also, my SWUs don't go that far because Ms. Satori makes preemptive claims on most of the upgrades. I think that is why I have been gifted so often by ticket counter staff.

Bottom line for me is that I will fly in the back if I have to pay significantly more for an upgradeable fare. Going places is my priority and the front of the plane is just a nice perk. When I have to make a choice my extra money goes for a better hotel, rather than a better seat on the plane.

Again I must respectfully disagree. To quote my old friend Emeril, "I don't know where you buy your USAir travel but where I buy mine..."

From the USAir website
http://www.usairways.com/dividendmil...m/upgrades.htm
for upgrades between Europe and North America:

Valid ONE WAY - 30K miles - Eligible Fare Classes - M, H, K or Q.

Valid ONE WAY - 10K miles - Eligible Fare Classes - B or Y.

Itinerary SFO/CDG; midweek travel in February; one week return with Saturday night stopover.

V Class [USAir's lowest Promotional Economy fare] - $484.80. Although NOT eligible for Dividend Mileage upgrade, let's assume for argument's sake it is.

B Class - $3,454.00.

Y Class - $3,832.00.

Conclusion:

$484.40 plus 60K Dividend miles or $3,454.00 plus 20K Dividend miles = One Business Class seat.

Continuing from the USAir website
http://www.usairways.com/dividendmil...avel_chart.htm
for Travel Between Europe and North America, Central America, the Caribbean, or Hawaii -

One Economy Class Ticket - 50K Dividend Miles;

One Business Class Ticket - 80K Dividend Miles.

Conclusion:

For the 60K upgrade you just paid nearly $500.00 for the 20K Dividend Miles you "saved" by upgrading instead of redeeming a business class seat outright. And if a qualifying fare costs more than $484.40 [which I believe it does], you paid even MORE!

Even at $500.00 you're paying USAir $0.025/mile which you can essentially do any day of the week without having to buy anything
http://buydividendmiles.points.com/h...dary!9033!9034
so how does this conversion ratio equate to "the most bang for your frequent flyer buck?"

For the 20K upgrade you just paid nearly $3,000.00 for the 60K Dividend Miles you "saved" by upgrading instead of redeeming a business class seat outright. This works out to $0.05/mile which is nearly twice as much as what you can pay any day of the week without having to buy anything. And if your qualifying fare is the $3,832.00 option, you paid even MORE!

I stand by my original observation; the most bang for your frequent flyer buck is realized by using your miles for an outright business class purchase. The regular business class fare for my above-quoted hypothetical routing is over $7,600.00. At 80K Dividend miles USAir just paid you $0.095/mile; nearly 400% more than what you were hypothetically just about to pay USAir.

The above-analysis assumes you are NOT a Premium 1 or greater K customer; do not accrue mileage at greater than 100%; and, do not have access to complimentary SWUs. Of course if you are or can, you probably don't need to pay anything for upgrades [either in money or frequent flyer miles]. Simply pay your $500.00; secure your 150% bonus mileage accrual; and rely upon your preferred status to secure your complimentary upgrade.

However for the rest of us...

[This message has been edited by smarten (edited 10-14-2003).]

Booked last night - BUF-LHR - K fare $645 - B fare $789. The $599 B fare starts on 12/24, and we wanted to be there before then.

A V fare is about $500. So for an extra $150 or so, I can use my SWU's. No promises, but track record had been good.

I have no idea where you're getting your $3000+ B fares from.

After making my arguments I just have to say I am blown away this morning to see that United has published H fares on Travelocity at $630 total fare for weekend travel SFO-LHR over the next few months.

This is hundreds of dollars lower than any H fare I recall to Europe in the last few years and the best thing I've seen from UA out of the West coast lately. I certainly would rethink my argument of not buying a higher fare if this became the norm and I could buy an upgradeable fare for a mere $200 more than the cheapest fare. That makes the H fare SWUs a reasonably priced option.

Like several others on FT, I have millions of miles from too many years of too much travel. I have adopted the strategy that my football coach espoused. He used to tell us, "take what the defense gives you." Now I say, "take what the airline gives you." If you can get first class award seats at saver award levels, take them.

etc.. etc.. blah blah blah,,
my friend i think you need to do a little more research on Flight prices, i'm sure everyone will agree the only FT'ers who pay $3000.00 for a B ticket is when flying around the world..
(when paying out of their pocket.. ) on holidays and not on other - must travel dates.. work etc..) - just incase you were hoping to catch me out.

See?! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif

Smarten, I think the key differences here are the cost of a B ticket, the flyer's desire to continue to accrue US Airways miles, and (in my case) the availability of SWU's.

The original poster had access to B fares for $600 - upgradable for 20k. If he can do that, and therefore spend $600 and 6000 (net) miles for a Biz seat, and be 7000 qualifying miles closer to being able to do it all again next year, he probably considers that better than spending 80k for a Biz award seat. Change the number to from $600 to $3400, and clearly the decision is different. (I will agree that $600 sounds lower than usual for an int'l B fare.)

In my case, I don't think I actually needed a B to use the SWU's. I went 3 times to Europe and never paid more than about $500 per ticket - confirmed upgrades at time of booking. $500 + about 12000 miles vs. spending 80k? In my case, I was still accumulating US Airways miles, so spending the money and the SWU clearly made the most sense.

Absolutely correct - see my post a couple above this to see what I wound up doing, and where that $600 B fare came from.

There were even cheaper fares available, but V fares are not upgradeable across the pond.

I'll get about 16,000 miles for this trip (with two segments per leg and 100% CP bonus, and be that much closer to doing it again next year. Since I'm using SWU's, that 16K is all in the net miles column. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Not sure how you confirmed upgrade at booking if it wasn't a B fare - supposedly that's the only less-than-Y fare that can do that.

PS - was also pleased to learn that they turn the booking over to the CP desk for tracking, so I don't have to remember to call 7 days out. That's a nice benny, and another reason why I continue to fly US whenever possible.

The other bit that I will add for the general benefit of those new to FT is that most people here don't ordinarily spend $7600 for leisure travel in business class.

Therefore, the logic that US Airways is somehow paying us 9.5 cents per mile on the business class award seat doesn't apply.

Sometimes there is no option. I had to redeem miles for a business class award ticket on SWISS from Eurpoe to India. However I have AA miles and it would not have been possible to upgrade me on a coach fare.

Even if there was an option to upgrade, the cheapest economy class ticket for the route was listed at ~$800 and I had to redeem only 60K miles for the business class award. I am not sure how much an upgradeable ticket would have cost. Even at ~$800, I am happy to burn the 60K miles. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif