I agree in part. Sometimes if we do this, the companies that make/change all these rules seem to know what we will put up with so they make it tougher. That's why it's good to still complain and keep them from pushing it all too far. Afterall some of the new rules of mileage use ARE a bit screwball.

Agreed.

I've been known to do my share of complaining.

Sure the rules are screwball, but sometimes that increases opportunity. Example (though not a new rule), I think it's crazy for UA to require the same number of miles to upgrade IAD-DEN as it does IAD-HNL, so I upgrade IAD-HNL with miles and IAD-DEN with 500 milers.

yup, and how a non saver mileage award on a certain AA flight I wanted was normally 35k and is now 60k to fly economy, but the business class awards that are also still available are ALSO 60k. And so why not just fly BIZ? :D

Well said. Last I checked, loyalty programs are voluntary. Rules change. Notice is given. We adapt. Accumulating miles via some partner offers is no doubt foolish given the premiums sometimes paid for goods or services just to earn miles. However, miles earned on credit card charges for purchases that would have been made even without the benefit of miles remains a nice perk. I have made numerous first class trips with my wife on miles primarily earned via the AMEX Skymiles card we use for most non-payroll business expenses. Sure its not as easy as it once was to find seats on flights with the desired times, but let's not forget: IT ESSENTIALLY IS A FREE FLIGHT. Some should try keeping it in perspective.

kinda don't agree:

1) yeah we signed up so we have to play by rules, but some change in ways that are beyond the norm for pretty much every other entity out there and we all know it. I know, I know, WE signed up for the programs, but still, I have strong belief --and some actual proof based on many many past dealings--that most mileage programs are akin to the common rebate scam. They don't always follow thru with what you did in terms of activity as promised at the time of action. When you call them on it, they have few or no facilities to deal with this type of problem. Think about it: You essentially paid them--ie, you signed up in their marketing database, which is numbers to them, and money to the investors. Your willingness to do that is a service you provided for them. In return they are supposed to give you the widget they advertised. But they failed to do for you what they promised YOU on the condition that you sign up! Why shouldnt we be upset about that when it happens? There's a COST to you if you have to go chasing them around to solve problems you did not initiate.

Sure, redeeming awards can and will change*, but in the above, I am talking about EARNING miles and that's sure part of all of this topic. And yes, using partners such as the airline malls can be 'foolish' for some, but hey, they are promoting it, right? Shouldnt they therefore run it well enough to do its job? If they fail to do this, that could be considered fraudulent!

2) All of this is a two way street. They need us too. It is not free. By using their portals and affiliated partners, cards and products, you are giving THEM effort, marketing input and a database entry per person and trasnaction. They PAY you to do for them in providing you miles for activities they drive you toward, and by promising that you can actually REDEEM these things when you want to. By making the second part an increasingly-harder-to-navigate gauntlet, they are once again bordering on fraud.

I could go on, but of course, WE signed up.
We also voted for a certain president who found no WMDs, but...

...time to vote again?

No, it is not a free flight. Accummulation of miles via a FF program credit card is an alternative to using a cashback card and receiving cash. Since 1% cashback cards are routinely available, every mile you earn on a credit card is costing you 1 cent (or 3 cents or 5 cents in the case of some of the grocery/gas rebate credit cards). The fact that you choose to take the miles in place of cash is your choice. The miles are anything but free.

YES! ...and if some kickback, cashback, miles or other rewards are present on your card, then you either pay a higher interest rate or have other hidden 'costs' to receive them.

This example is more clearly seen in bank accounts or mortgages that offer mileage to sign up. The interest you earn is lower in the first, or the rate you get quoted is slightly higher in the second.

In the case of credit card purchases, it is true that the price of products may be the same no matter what card you use, but the merchants are sometimes agreeing to pay into the ability to let this all happen too, so in the end, because they therefore raise their prices to the consumer, you are paying for the miles there as well.

Examples of this are like when you go to CVS stores and they print you a ton of coupons on the end of your receipt that give you all sorts of savings on future visits. If you go to the el cheapo pharmacy, the prices are lower and you get no coupons. It's a trade off. One version is about people who play the game.

Your credit score also plays into this: It makes you a viable candidate to play or not. You still have the choice to play...

...but it is clear that if the game does not like you if you have low scores or bad credit, that they conversely DO like those with higher scores and good credit because they know they can rely on these people to spend more money./

they will PAY for this data. Our playing gives them data. Investors love data.

Now for you, the consumer, what the use of award miles really is, is a very intricate method to do a pre-paid, self-financed flight. You paid into the system little by little day by day in tiny amounts here and there in order to build up to receive what it takes to fly. It is as if you paid off tomorrow's flight with a few pennies per day from day 1 to today.

oh yes, you paid for it.
now they MUST deliver!

and what I signed up for was the acceptance to play THAT game.
I did NOT sign up for any part of it that purposely fails to play its part in spite of if I do mine.

free frequent flyer miles are not free
 

if you accrue ff miles via actual flying, those miles are not free

you have implicitly paid for them as the costs of the frequent flyer programs - including IT programmimg, additional hardware , advertising, personnell costs - are all included in the price of your ticket

so not to use them is a waste of your money, and you essentially subsidize those flyer who do use them

i'm waiting for an airline to come up with multi tier priicing and produce a fare that doesnt inclide miles and is always10 to 15% lower than a mileage accruing fare

one could argue that those programs whose points expire in a year are at least tending towrds this, but they are notq uite there yet

Again, keeping some perspective would help. We're talking about a system that began as a relatively cheap way for airlines to reward their frequent customers. Most folks traveling for a living did it on someone else's dime. Of course that was before so much "downsizing" where half of the former workforce became self-employed consultants. Airlines doled out miles for you to bank. Your employer paid for the ticket, and you got the miles. Once you started to accumulate miles you had incentive to remain "loyal" to a particular carrier (assuming there was competition on that route). When you earned enough miles, you cashed the miles in for a couple of tickets to treat yourself and your spouse to a nice trip. You got free travel and were happy. The beauty of it was that it basically cost the carrier nothing to make you happy. They generally had excess capacity, so they filled some empty seats.

Twenty-five plus years later, the world has changed. Carriers are parking planes as well as switching to smaller planes on short haul routes to increase passenger loads. Flights are routinely near capacity these days. So an awards seat frequently does actually cost the airline the lost opportunity to sell that seat. Is it any wonder as airlines try to avoid a return trip to Bankruptcy Court that they tighten up on availability of awards seats and do anything else they can to improve the balance sheet? Selling miles to partners is but one way for the carriers to bring in additional revenue. Hell, in the past you had to fly quite a few flights before you racked up enough miles for a free flight. Now you can open some credit card accounts and have enough miles for a flight with your first statement. In the market place that's one big source of inflation. It's the equivalent of a banana republic printing more currency. More dinero chasing a set number of goods leads to devaluation of the currency. Same with miles. Everyone is flush with miles chasing fewer seats. That's the new reality. If we don't like it, we should play another game instead of .....ing about the rules of this game. BTW, there is no "fraud" at play. The T&C for every program clearly state the "rules" are subject to change. Well change is all around. Isn't someone running for high political office on a largely unspecified platform of change?

I'm not disagreeing with the rest of what you said, but I do think that miles can help you get something you could not otherwise attain, even with careful saving and penny pinching.

An example: last year I purchased 66,000 UMP miles for $1647.50. That's about 2.5 cents per mile, not a good rate by most peoples' standards, I know. I also have a MP Visa, upon which I earned another 24,000 miles or so for purchases I would have made anyway. I paid it off every month, but I did pay an annual fee of $140.00. The 24,000 miles don't represent a 1 to 1 $24,000, since I got double and triple miles on some things, but let's pretend they did. Let's say that I could have got a fantastic deal on a cashback card: 5%. $24,000x.05=$1,200.00. So the total cost, including "opportunity cost" of 90,000 miles was $1647.50+$140.00+$1200.00=$2987.50, about $3000.00, or approximately .03 per mile - again, a very bad ratio, I know (but remember, these numbers are inflated for this example - in reality, it would be about $2000.00).

However, for that $3000.00 I got 90,000 miles, which translates into a business class ticket to Japan. And since I've never seen a business class ticket to Japan on UA for less than $5000 to $6000, I still feel that the money was well-spent...as long as I'm able to get a ticket when I want to go. I did not get a free ticket, just a heavily discounted business class ticket. And that's why I still do it, because I won't pay $6000.00 out of pocket for a business class ticket, but I will pay $3000.00 over time to purchase one.

-kirax2

FF miles (augmented by transferred Rewards points) and expeditious use of hotel points have taken my wife and I to Europe 3 times and Asia once, all in BizClass. For me, the AMEX and the other CC I use are no more than artificial debit cards, as I transfer funds to beat any interest charges, and the AMEX fee is part of the cost of doing business, worth it or not in your eyes. Often, I'd rather stay in a few more quaint "non-branded" hotels abroad, but the allure of using points in the big cities is hard to beat, especially when one looks at European hotel rates.

Yes. I "pay" for FF miles and hotel points, but my cost are no greater than the costs borne by folks who neither acquire many or work at "shopping smart".

No, BizClass awards are not always easy to "game" the system to acquire, but amazingly, we've never had to sweat blood or settle for something less than planned or intended. Over the years, we've used FF miles for "special" domestic occasions, once even a club membership for a daughter doing her road warrior novitiate, and we've an awards economy flight to the East Coast in October.

There's no free lunch, but the nature of my business has made it possible for me to benefit from loyalty programs at what I perceive to be no "added" costs.

the phrase, "if you dont like it, don't listen/watch/particiapte"... is not a good dictum to live one's life by, I think. To me, its very nature fosters a bitterness and 'holier than thou' attitude that must be quelled in a society full of progressive ideas and diverse populations. It claims there is ONE WAY to be and yet we all know that's not true. It suggests that everyone should say F U to everyone else and only the ones with the power can survive.

How about: If you don't like it, log your complaint and we will either show you why you were wrong or we will change because you were right.

And yes, there is fraud in mile land. Again, I cite earning situations, primarily earning from partners whos miles fail to post. As for the rules of redemption, they really change too quickly for most normal people who were sold on the concept of getting miles to fly can keep up with. In this sense, it is nearly deceptive, but one can always argue that everything is if we don't fully commit ourselves to learning everything that comes with the gift being given by any marketer. (Similarly, Ebay is hard to be involved with unless you really get rather advanced rather quickly, or get darn lucky on your first few sales)

next time, hit me up for 'trades'. I got 90k UA and would love to fly on carrier X or stay in hotel Y using points YOU may have! :D I agree your method was a great way to save several thousand dollars so it is very valid. There are, however, much cheaper ways to earn that many miles and do so very quickly...

[QUOTE=TMOliver;10198212]and we've an awards economy flight to the East Coast in October.

QUOTE]


...coming to see if the Boston Red Sox can pull off another World Series win, are ya? :D:D:D

the phrase, "if you dont like it, don't listen/watch/particiapte"... is not a good dictum to live one's life by, I think. To me, its very nature fosters a bitterness and 'holier than thou' attitude that must be quelled in a society full of progressive ideas and diverse populations. It claims there is ONE WAY to be and yet we all know that's not true. It suggests that everyone should say F U to everyone else and only the ones with the power can survive.

How about: If you don't like it, log your complaint and we will either show you why you were wrong or we will change because you were right.

And yes, there is fraud in mile land. Again, I cite earning situations, primarily earning from partners whos miles fail to post. As for the rules of redemption, they really change too quickly for most normal people who were sold on the concept of getting miles to fly can keep up with. In this sense, it is nearly deceptive, but one can always argue that everything is if we don't fully commit ourselves to learning everything that comes with the gift being given by any marketer. (Similarly, Ebay is hard to be involved with unless you really get rather advanced rather quickly, or get darn lucky on your first few sales)

next time, hit me up for 'trades'. I got 90k UA and would love to fly on carrier X or stay in hotel Y using points YOU may have! :D I agree your method was a great way to save several thousand dollars so it is very valid. There are, however, much cheaper ways to earn that many miles and do so very quickly...


...coming to see if the Boston Red Sox can pull off another World Series win, are ya? :D:D:D

I wish I knew of a cheap way to earn UA miles for my daughter's account quickly. I posted about my situation, but no one's replied. I guess I made my post too long... :o

Thanks very much for your reply. I'm glad to hear that my method was a valid one, if not the cheapest one; I'd rather feared ridicule for actually purchasing miles. ;)

BTW, this method is not as good as it used to be, since United raised the cost to purchase miles this year. :(

If you'd be willing, I'd be interested in talking with you, if only to get a feel for the kind of points I *should* be working on accruing. Would it be all right if I PMd you?

Thanks again,
-kirax2

oh I was being facetious about trading in here ;) but hey, if you have a friend or family member who has miles, hit them up.

yes your method of getting that ticket was fine because you saved money and therefore played the game nicely.

people could PM me if they wish to ask anything though, since I TRY to help out in here with tips, although I know mine aint the only ones and there are far more knowledgeable people in this forum.

:)MM