FF miles (augmented by transferred Rewards points) and expeditious use of hotel points have taken my wife and I to Europe 3 times and Asia once, all in BizClass. For me, the AMEX and the other CC I use are no more than artificial debit cards, as I transfer funds to beat any interest charges, and the AMEX fee is part of the cost of doing business, worth it or not in your eyes. Often, I'd rather stay in a few more quaint "non-branded" hotels abroad, but the allure of using points in the big cities is hard to beat, especially when one looks at European hotel rates.

Yes. I "pay" for FF miles and hotel points, but my cost are no greater than the costs borne by folks who neither acquire many or work at "shopping smart".

No, BizClass awards are not always easy to "game" the system to acquire, but amazingly, we've never had to sweat blood or settle for something less than planned or intended. Over the years, we've used FF miles for "special" domestic occasions, once even a club membership for a daughter doing her road warrior novitiate, and we've an awards economy flight to the East Coast in October.

There's no free lunch, but the nature of my business has made it possible for me to benefit from loyalty programs at what I perceive to be no "added" costs.

the phrase, "if you dont like it, don't listen/watch/particiapte"... is not a good dictum to live one's life by, I think. To me, its very nature fosters a bitterness and 'holier than thou' attitude that must be quelled in a society full of progressive ideas and diverse populations. It claims there is ONE WAY to be and yet we all know that's not true. It suggests that everyone should say F U to everyone else and only the ones with the power can survive.

How about: If you don't like it, log your complaint and we will either show you why you were wrong or we will change because you were right.

And yes, there is fraud in mile land. Again, I cite earning situations, primarily earning from partners whos miles fail to post. As for the rules of redemption, they really change too quickly for most normal people who were sold on the concept of getting miles to fly can keep up with. In this sense, it is nearly deceptive, but one can always argue that everything is if we don't fully commit ourselves to learning everything that comes with the gift being given by any marketer. (Similarly, Ebay is hard to be involved with unless you really get rather advanced rather quickly, or get darn lucky on your first few sales)

next time, hit me up for 'trades'. I got 90k UA and would love to fly on carrier X or stay in hotel Y using points YOU may have! :D I agree your method was a great way to save several thousand dollars so it is very valid. There are, however, much cheaper ways to earn that many miles and do so very quickly...

[QUOTE=TMOliver;10198212]and we've an awards economy flight to the East Coast in October.

QUOTE]


...coming to see if the Boston Red Sox can pull off another World Series win, are ya? :D:D:D

the phrase, "if you dont like it, don't listen/watch/particiapte"... is not a good dictum to live one's life by, I think. To me, its very nature fosters a bitterness and 'holier than thou' attitude that must be quelled in a society full of progressive ideas and diverse populations. It claims there is ONE WAY to be and yet we all know that's not true. It suggests that everyone should say F U to everyone else and only the ones with the power can survive.

How about: If you don't like it, log your complaint and we will either show you why you were wrong or we will change because you were right.

And yes, there is fraud in mile land. Again, I cite earning situations, primarily earning from partners whos miles fail to post. As for the rules of redemption, they really change too quickly for most normal people who were sold on the concept of getting miles to fly can keep up with. In this sense, it is nearly deceptive, but one can always argue that everything is if we don't fully commit ourselves to learning everything that comes with the gift being given by any marketer. (Similarly, Ebay is hard to be involved with unless you really get rather advanced rather quickly, or get darn lucky on your first few sales)

next time, hit me up for 'trades'. I got 90k UA and would love to fly on carrier X or stay in hotel Y using points YOU may have! :D I agree your method was a great way to save several thousand dollars so it is very valid. There are, however, much cheaper ways to earn that many miles and do so very quickly...


...coming to see if the Boston Red Sox can pull off another World Series win, are ya? :D:D:D

I wish I knew of a cheap way to earn UA miles for my daughter's account quickly. I posted about my situation, but no one's replied. I guess I made my post too long... :o

Thanks very much for your reply. I'm glad to hear that my method was a valid one, if not the cheapest one; I'd rather feared ridicule for actually purchasing miles. ;)

BTW, this method is not as good as it used to be, since United raised the cost to purchase miles this year. :(

If you'd be willing, I'd be interested in talking with you, if only to get a feel for the kind of points I *should* be working on accruing. Would it be all right if I PMd you?

Thanks again,
-kirax2

oh I was being facetious about trading in here ;) but hey, if you have a friend or family member who has miles, hit them up.

yes your method of getting that ticket was fine because you saved money and therefore played the game nicely.

people could PM me if they wish to ask anything though, since I TRY to help out in here with tips, although I know mine aint the only ones and there are far more knowledgeable people in this forum.

:)MM

The issue remains that if DL can use the excuse of ATC/weather delay to strand you in a distant city and tell you that you cannot be booked to fly home, unless you buy an expensive walk-up one way ticket, then the value of your miles is not just worthless -- by using the miles you have actually LOST a great deal of money. All of this discussion of miles-earning credit cards vs. grocery-cashback credit cards vs. hotel programs completely misses the point of the Original Post. If my hotel program suddenly decides mid vacation that I don't have a room, big deal, I can stay in a hostel or a tent or a B&B or any number of choices that are actually cheaper and more of a travel experience anyway. But if I'm stranded halfway across the world and the airline suddenly decides to cancel the flight I'm on and refuse to put me on another unless I pay again, then it would have been far, far, far better if I'd never participated in that program to begin with. This happening once could wipe out the entire lifetime savings from being in that program.

Let me be clear: I'm worried about paying for my trip upfront with miles plus taxes/fees, as I have already paid for several trips upcoming on DL, then being stranded as this person describes and being told that I will not be transported home. In that case, yes, the miles are not just "b.s." they would truly be a scam used to cheat me out of a lot of money.

Apparently, this poster is not the only person to report this experience. THAT'S the issue. The other stuff is trivia. Let's get back to finding out if we have any legal rights in this situation. If we don't, the OP is correct, and you would have to be an idiot to earn/redeem on DL because the risk of being stranded at certain destinations could easily wipe out a year or more worth of savings by participating in the loyalty program in the first place.

Any airline employee can make a one time mistake but if this is a recurring issue on DL, then it needs to be discussed and fixed ASAP, in my humble view. The airport is not a place where a person can raise their voice, stomp their feet, and demand a supervisor. You may get the supervisor if you ask nicely, or you may get threatened with arrest because the person who doesn't want you speaking with their supervisor pretends not to like your tone. We all know the score. You can ask to speak with a higher-up, and you can suddenly meet with an attitude or a threat. We've all seen it happen. So we need to know our rights in advance. At least the number of someone we can call ourselves, on our own phone. Something!

Why pay interest at all? CC use already allows several weeks' float time. Pay off the balance before the due date @:-)

While that used to be the case years ago, modern CC have substantially shortened the amount of time you have to pay. A frequent traveler out of country may not be able to pay before interest accrues. One of the reasons why I can rarely use my CC and pretty much stick to the debit card if I have foreign travel coming up.

But again this is not the real issue. This is a side distraction from the real issue raised in the OP.

You can (and I have) logged onto my credit card accounts on the internet and paid them while spending time abroad. For example, I registered my AMEX cards, and I can log onto the AMEX site, and pay those cards out of my bank account at any time, day or night, so long as I have internet access.

Therefore, I guess I don't really see the problem you raise as being a significant impediment. Certainly not one that would prevent me from earning all the FF miles I earn through CC usage.

YOU are absolutely right and yes we have been veering off course, but the stuff we are talking about provides valid background information on the make up of these very programs. ie, the stuff that proves or disproves the validity of FF programs as a whole.

I think they are a sham and basically we are LUCKY when things DO work out. Kinda like some corrupt thrid-world immigration officer quietly accepting cahs to let your visa suddnely get you in or out of their corrupt country (see Indonesia, as one example for more on that one!)

So where DO you get the real lowdown and what do you bring with you to the airport to present as armed proof that your ticket is supposed to work for this flilght?

Do we call DL, ask for some higher up in mileage, get themto send a letter saying THIS TICKET HAS BEEN APPROVED (like some notary stamp they'd probably chargeus for anyway) and then bring THAT letter to an airport just IN CASE this stuff ever happens to us every time we fly?

Or... should we go by the previous 20+ years of FF programs in a general assumption that we paid for the ticket using a valid currency and that is why it should work no matter what?

When the rules suddenly and drastically change, people DO need to take action, not just roll with it and say, "if you don't like it, don't participate." After all, that would still leave the OP stranded in the middle of nowhere. Oh sure, next time he or she flies there will be little reliance on the FF useage, but we are talking about being told NO mid flight for something so obtuse it should be downright illegal!

So who... who do we call?

While I have eventually had my particular 'cases' ultimately dealt with to my satisfaction in the past, I have had very little luck in solving this type of thing when it comes to NWA/DL partner mileage crediting issues. I brought those up BECAUSE it is on the same airline (I should have been more clear about that--sorry). NW is merging into DL soon and if THAT piddily little mileage credit failure problem cannot be fixed, then this bigger 'mid-flight award validity' issue will surely be a huge nightmere to hurdle over with the airline.

We all first need to agree that while it's a game and we decided to play, that there ARE problems and WE must as a whole try to fix them. We must do this now and do it as one, because even if we think it wont affect us, it will in fact help clean up the act at these airlines for things that COULD affect us later in other areas we havent even thought of yet.

The airline could try anything just to amek or save a buck. We can no longr assume that because they are a big business that they 'would never do that to us.'

ohhh yes they would!
they ARE!

We must also agree that there needs to be a definitive point at which existing mileage reservations should count with today's rules and not be subject to change mid flight.

and all of the rules about flights NEED to be fully disclosed in type bigger than 5point, and in clear and reasonable fashions for everyone to see. Something like this could be acted into law even!

Yeah, good luck on getting THAT done. We have bigger things to work on in congress, like who to bust for using steriods in sports)

one other thing: I sure hope the OP did or does write into DL to demand refunds.

I tink the point is that there are times when paying your CC is lower on the list of priorities given one's situation. Being overseas MAY not just entail being in, say, some friendly internet cafe in London. It may mean you are stationed to help out with medical issues in Iraq or something like that too. Likely your internet access is not as easily used as it would be elsewhere. I dunno.
and yeah this veers off subject too

Sure -- but if you're in Iraq (or in the middle of the Sahara, or whatever) without the ability to access the Internet, your priorities will be different. You may not even be able to make the minimum payments required. Mind you, there probably aren't many merchants in the Sahara accepting credit cards.

But for the majority of the members of these forums, it's not really a question of not being able to make a payment. But each one of us has different priorities ...

I have all my credit cards set to automatically withdraw the statement balance from from my checking account each month. This prevents me from ever getting charged interest or late fees. I suppose there are cases where it could be bad (i.e. if my card was stolen) but the avoidance of fees and interest is worth that risk to me.

Anyway, yes, this is getting off topic.

Re-reading the original post, one thing really stands out to me - that when the OP spoke to the right person, the whole thing was fixed in "under a minute".

How much of a risk is it that someone behind the counter will call the police if they "don't like your tone"? I'm genuinely curious, because it seems to me that we need to get more assertive. With a lot of the horror stories I've been reading recently, it seemed to me that people accepted the bad things passively, rather than standing up for themselves. I could be wrong, of course - I wasn't there in any of those cases. And of course, one should always start with respect and kindness. But when a smile and "Isn't there *anything* you can do for me?" fails, then we need to move to, "This is unacceptable," to "I'd like to speak with your supervisor," and then start over again. If I'm being mistreated, I have no problem raising my voice, though I will always keep my language polite: "This is entirely unacceptable. I reserved these tickets a month ago and now you are stranding me here in midflight? I've been a loyal customer of your airline for years, as the very fact that I was able to reserve this flight with miles should demonstrate. If you can't help me, please let me speak with someone that can," etc.

Really, it seems like it's mostly about finding the person that CAN help you, at least based on the OP. And as Marathon Man says, how can we do that? How can we find the person that can "make it right" in less than a minute, and speak with them? Any ideas?

-kirax2

one way is to be someone of status within the airline's FF program.
another is to be someone who works for the police or FBI or TSA
Another is to be a pregnant woman
and finally, to get darn lucky.

I have a similar united horror story that nearly caused security to come over but in the end, I paid $2,000 for a new immediate ticket to get on what I was supposed to be on, and in 3 months' time, after much hell and pressing the issue with all parties, I had my money back with appologies and flight vouchers to boot. It sucked though, lemme tell ya. I had to be the tenacious one.

at the airline desk I experienced lies from supervisors and others, and one employee told me "There IS nothing you or we can do sir, this airline is bankrupt anyway!"

yeah I almost lost it.

I am guilty of traveling outside the area that is serviced by reliable internet. Silly me. :cool:

to address a few of yr points, kirax2
 

1) Well, my friend just cxl'd his Amex card because the automatic payments "somehow" didn't work, to the profit of Amex which then wanted to charge a $38 late fee. Result: Amex has just lost a customer of many years standing. The problem is that if the automatic process doesn't work as it should, there is no longer any understanding on the part of the CC company. They make most of their money on bogus fees these days, and "bad" customers are valued more than good customers. So it seems they either want you to become a "bad" fee-paying customer, or they don't want your business anyway. My personal choice -- too much hassle and keeping up with paperwork to be worth the few extra miles I earn. Admittedly I just don't spend that much money and CC miles never amount to anything for me anyway. I get BY FAR the bulk of my miles by flying.

2) I am a middle-aged woman. It doesn't matter how many times I say "please" and "thank you," if I contradict someone, instead of deferring to the other person's authority, then I am considered to be hysterical and out of control. Even Hillary Clinton couldn't nicely raise her voice without being considered a witch. If I persist at asking the same question, no matter how nicely, "May I see the supervisor, please?" then I am a nag. That's just the way the world works, and it isn't going to change before my next flight. I sometimes see middle-aged men get results by being assertive but even they, sometimes, get warned that they are subject to arrest/detention/"do you want to fly today?" My chances of a good result by "insisting" -- which is called "nagging" when a woman does it -- are close enough to zero that I won't risk it.

3) I agree with this point 100%: Really, it seems like it's mostly about finding the person that CAN help you, at least based on the OP. And as Marathon Man says, how can we do that? How can we find the person that can "make it right" in less than a minute, and speak with them? Any ideas?

I suspect this is what most of us would have to do in practice. Pay the extortionist fee and then put a charge-back through at the credit card company. This process is a nightmare, and I was told frequently that you can "never" charge-back an air ticket, under any circumstances. I had to do it once in the 1990s, and it took over a YEAR for the charge to be removed. I was pretty much subjected monthly or more often to threats from the creditor and at one point I was certain we'd all end up in court. Not fun. But you gotta do what you gotta do.

It could not be handled at the time of the flight no matter how polite or how tearful or how loudly you raised your voice. I didn't try the yelling, but I saw others in the same mess try it without success. I stuck with being courteous and very, very sad. But if the agent is determined to be nasty and to imagine that she is being threatened, at some point, there is nothing you can do but go along to get along and file a complaint later. And this was way before 911. I can't imagine that the situation would be any easier to deal with on site today.

Chase UMPV can be set up to automatically pay the amount of the last statement balance on the payment due date every month right from your checking account. You can be on the moon and still pay off your balance. ;)

That sounds like a bad experience, I do have to say I have never experienced a problem like that using miles. It has always gone smoothly and usually they seem to treat me better because they know I give them enough business to have the miles to fly.

What is unfortunately is that they keep upping the miles required for a ticket. Also, occasionally i get a terminal rep who just does not want to be there and takes it out on every customer.

Hopefully this was an isolated incident.

Yeah, me too. I'm hoping this was just an isolated case of a bad employee, which could happen anywhere in any industry. If there is really a pattern, it's far more disturbing.

And thanks to JonathanIT, I thought I'd heard of such an option but when I asked about it, the credit card in question pretended not to have heard of it. Sigh. I will investigate further.

Both "situations" occurred in Frankfurt, Germany. They were both award tickets. I don't remember exactly what happened, but both were concerning canceled flights due to mechanical problems and re-routing to get to an emergency at home. The AA supervisor listened to the details and even though it was an award ticket she tried to acomodate me. The Delta supervisor stated the "award ticket" issue....and wouldn't help at all, believing that the award ticket was a lesser version of a "real" ticket. This was not a situation getting the initial ticket...that problem is about the same with Delta and AA....at least it was the last I used Delta. This was after the ticket was issued....on a problem getting from point A to B....where people with "regular" tickets were being helped.....and Delta singled out my "award"...like it was some sort of non-revenue ticket and that I had no rights at all....at least not more than their employees flying for free. That is my point. Otay?

yup, I gotcha.
but what I am asking is... in case one were to be planning on flying an award ticket on DELTA and wanted to BE SURE this would not ever happen, then do you suppose one could contact the airline BEFORE hand and get something in writing stating it is valid, so that if one is ever in that situation you were in, they could whip out said letter and say,
no, airline idiot employee... I have something here that validates my ticket!"

I wonder if that's doable. I mean, you'd think the ticket itself is good enough, but cases such as yours prove otherwise--until ultimately someone helped you and you had not blown up first.

One would think that even the contract employees that we sometimes think work for the airline directly (but actually work for a company like Swissport/ "Swissport International Ltd., which is owned by Ferrovial, a leading European infrastructure and service corporation based in Spain, provides ground services for over 70 million passengers and 3.2 million tonnes of cargo a year on behalf of some 650 client companies. With its workforce of around 30 000 personnel, Swissport is active at 187 airports in 43 countries on five continents, and generated consolidated operating revenue of CHF 1.9 billion (EUR 1 266 million or USD 1 583 million) last year...... for example)....would be aware of what a FF award ticket is and the weight of the ticket. But they are not. I have had some really strange stuff happen with award tickets....but I have used a lot of them and sometimes everything is very smooth. I even had an AA FF award on CX in LAX and they refused boarding with the comment "ticket no good"......."flight full".......? This was a bad one as the flight was oversold and they were not only making me the first one denied boarding....but going with a "ticket no good" explanation. This time I called the AA desk and they did have the airport manager from AA come physically down to the CX terminal area. After a brief discussion I was given a boarding pass. I guess the supervisor explained that an award ticket is a real ticket.......I was not privy to the conversation. There are a lot of personnel out there that believe an award is some type of non-rev with last boarding rights when problems occur....it's not only on Delta....but actual Delta employess (working directly for Delta and not contract employees) have looked at FF tix....and felt it was a lesser form of reality.

As to your specific question, I would say there is no letter that you can obtain because at the administrative level where the ticket is issued, they know it is a real ticket for the class and seat awarded. As many people who do not get into these situations are the ones you are talking to...they would believe the concern to be moot.

I don't know why you guys are bothering. The OP did a post and run and really doesn't seem to care that you guys are giving feedback on his/her issue. It was probably the OP's screw up from the start, but if he/she doesn't care about what any of you say, why bother posting on this???

...more in reference to this post and a few by Marathon Man...than the original OP.....who did a runner for sure!!

Why?

...so I could try to muscle my way in and take over the thread by babbling endlessly about stuff that probably hasnt happened to most people in here and try to act like I know what I'm talking about cuz I probably don't in my non-online life?

:D:D:D:D:D:D

Either that or it's just an interesting subject and I'd like to be prepared when I fly on awards.

Or both :D:D:D

OP did not post and run
 

I am the original poster and returned yesterday from my trip. I did not feel like spending my time away responding to posts on this forum and did not look at it until the day after my return. I had no idea there would be such a strong response to what I wrote and that it would appear that I had merely posted and ran. Of course, I am delighted to hear all the responses, especially from those who see my point. What more would anyone want me to say, though? It sounds like people got the drift and feel as I do that the airlines need us to let them know of our dissatisfaction. To be treated as a freeloader when using FF tickets is not right. If difficulties arise, even if the airlines claim it is not their fault, if they can resolve the difficulties by using empty seats which would otherwise go unused, as in my case, and they should do it without a fuss.

P.S. .. The gate agent who had dealt with me was a prince of a guy. He worked the boarding process and multi-tasked quite easily and did so with professional cool. He tried his best to get me what I wanted in rebooking, but did not have the power to do more. I wrote Delta a letter complimenting him and I wrote them a separate letter letting them know of my dissatisfaction. The responses I got were typical generic ones.

On my return trip, I had more trouble, but it had nothing to do with FF miles. The agent switched my exit row seat at the last minute after misunderstanding a request to be moved made by someone with my same last name. I only found this out right before boarding, even though my boarding pass had the correct seat. I had to fight - yes, yell and argue adamantly with supervisors for 15 minutes - to get what I rightly deserved. They were telling me that exit rows have no more leg room and bulkhead seats are better (with walls in front of your toes . . . sure.) Ultimately, they had to ask the passenger to whom they had just mistakenly given my seat to vacate it. I learned later that he had fought hard to retain it until someone else volunteered to move. My flight was excellent after that, other than having been made late for refueling stop due to Delta's unwillingness to fix a hydraulic light problem in a foreign city. They are truly tight for money and the result is delays.

you failed to tell us you were goiongto travel! shame on you :D:D:D

Anyway, yeah, seems as though DL is strapped for cash. Very United of them.
I am bumming because I use NWA to fly overseas and now they will be engrossed into this new quagmire for sure.

Oh whoa is me.
:D

glad to have you back. I hope the DL problem in your orginal post never happens to you or anyone again. And as for the seat mistake the airline made, I am glad you fought for it but didnt get in trouble. It is sad that they must make life so hard for people. Take note of this experience the next time someone in FT says all this flying crap is easy.

Miles are not BS,
 

While I agree with you Zephyrus to some extent, award tickets are not always top priority with airlines, you are missing a lot here. Granted, the travel industry is hurting and airlines are trying to squeeze money no matter what, I still believe that loyalty has its benefits. Hear me out and then consider what I say. My wife and I are currently in the process of re-qualifying for PLT level in AA for the 2nd year and here are our main reasons. A higher tier loyalty level will allow you to go through security on a separate and shorter line on certain airports, usually the one reserved for first class, most airlines have a designated lines only for higher tier members, this line could actually be shorter than regular lines, and it doesn't matter that you bought a cheaper fare ticket. You can be one of the first to board a plane, and you can have better seat selections, even though you bought a cheaper fare ^. You can also be on the top of the list for standby. Other things to consider are that with a higher tier loyalty level you can accumulate more miles maybe 1.5x or 2x than regular level, you also accumulate points that can be used for upgrades, or be given upgrades automatically if the airlines need to bump you to first class to accomodate other passengers. While airlines are limiting the amount of award travels, with time and patience you might be able to find a good route to use them, or you can even use your miles to pay for your membership to the airlines lounge club at the airport. We belong to the AAdmirals club, and its wonderful. Better seating, restroom facility, shower facility, free internet, wifi, free snacks, bar area, but the most important thing, if you need help with your reservation, there are several customer service reps in the lounge area that are more helpful than the ones one "main" part of the airport. With all this, I still say that loyalty has its benefits.