I am in agreement with Beckles and even Izzik, although the appelation is a bit rough. It is one thing if by some error on the part of the airline, etc., you manage to get miles or whatever for something that you were not entitled to, but it is really quite another thing when you puroposely go oout of your way -- REPEATEDLY -- to cheat the system from what your are actually entitled to receive.

It is one thing for you to be the recipient of a "gift," however, it really is quite another for you to be proactive in trying to get something you know that you are not entitled to receive.

At bottom, I believe it comes down to a person's individual ethics, and that is where I part company with many on these boards who feel justified in trying to force a vendor to honor what is obviously a keystroke mistake on the part of a computer data entry clerk -- e.g. Starwood Bora Bora, Thai Airlines, etc. That list could go on and on.

Yeah, this is one of those ethical gray areas. I tend to come down on the side of not trying to get miles credited (air or hotel) because of the explicitness of the rules.

I use Priceline a lot for hotels, but never so far for airlines because of the "no FF miles rule" and not having control over schedules, airlines or routings. It just can't compete with my usual game of booking weird itineraries on rock-bottom fares with upgrades and elite bonuses thrown in. The only case I can see using Priceline is near the last minute when you unexpectedly ahve to be somewhere and are being quoted sky-high fares.

OTOH, I admit there have been times where I was surprised by a "no miles granted" clause where I felt entitled. Two such cases were on America West tickets bought partially with bump vouchers. The agents wouldn't enter my OnePass number, saying the tickets were ineligible (never mind that I had ponied up money on top of the bump vouchers and the vouchers didn't say that in the fine print, nor was it disclosed before accepting the offer). HP was also out of line with the rest of the industry in doing that.

To make a long story short, I sent in the documents to Continental and they credited all the flights.

Personally I think some of the tactics proposed cross the line and constitute fraud. When you submit your ticket after your flights to receive something of value you already know you are not entitled to, I'm not sure how you could think that is a "gray area" ...

I flew Priceline tickets a few times and when I received Delta tickets I would get my SkyMiles number put on the tickets so my status would be in the system for preferred seating and priority stand-by (when it was allowed), but I would have never even considered submitting my ticket stubs after the fact to receive mileage credit.

geez, i've been here for 6mos or so now. everytime i check into flyertalk i'm astounded by how many of you like to inflate 'loopholes' or other such tactics to buzzwords such as 'fraud' 'dishonesty' and 'immoral' etc. please, people, take it easy. some people are persistent, and, well, my parents taught me that persistence is how you get things you want. if that annoys you, then so be it; the rest of us will take our persistence to the bank. just, please, reserve judgement for yourselves or, as reality probably has it, your loved ones. the rest of us are just exchanging ideas, so leave it alone.

for those moderates out there, sorry for the rant--i just can't stand all the senseless judgements that are being passed around this board.

--bc

Totally agree.

But, I've gotten miles on Priceline tickets this way: it doesn't hurt to use the self-check-in kiosks, which you can then enter your FF# yourself. You may or may not get miles, but it's a try.

I can only laugh at this ... it's amazing what some folks will do to get something they are not entitled to.

It's a well known fact that stealing in moderation is relatively easy ... I can eat all the grapes I want at the grocery store and probably never get caught ... that doesn't make it right.

If you know you are not supposed to get miles for a ticket, how can you justify repeated attempts after the flights to receive miles. That's wrong ... that's trying to get something you have no right to ... that's stealing in my book.

You know, I could walk into the McDonalds down the street and tell them I had lunch there yesterday but they forgot to put one of the cheeseburgers I ordered in my bag and they'd most likely give me a free cheeseburger ... certainly if I were persistent and went to three McDonalds I would eventually get a free cheeseburger. Persistence would net me that free cheeseburger, but it sure as hell ain't right ...

bostonchef:

With all due respect, kindly advise at which establishment you practice your skills. With such sentiments, one might be wise to cast an askance look when we are advised on the menu that the fish or meat is really truly yfresh and/or that it is really veal that we will be eating.

Sheesh. Of course, you can't faul't an individual's persistence. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

Moreover, I don't fault the FT who does the self-service check-in to ease his way and with the side benefit of getting the FF miles. That is a one shot deal that the airlines could fix if they have not already done so, but still, it is one shot at doing so while doing something legitimate, and not a repeated series of attempts whose sole aim is to obtain something that you are clearly not entitled to having.

Now look at that, for voicing my concern over the judgemental nature of many of the voices on FT, I'm accused of being unscrupulous myself. For what it's worth, if I fly on a non-eligible ticket, I'd try a couple of times, but really, I don't value the miles that highly. That said, I don't understand how my *concerns* reflect so negatively on me--if I voiced concerns about death sentences for serial murderers, I fancy I'd be flamed for being a proponent of such murders...

sheesh, indeed.

For the record, if I wouldn't eat it, I wouldn't serve it.

And my above comments are intended as a general gripe with certain posters, not as a defense of anybody's tactics or ideas as presented on FT.

--bc

So you would try and receive something of value you were not entitled to ... but since it's just an exercise of "persistence" like your parents taught you, I guess it's okay to do that ...

Yes, I would ask for the miles. You've never checked in at the gate and asked if they might be able to upgrade you? You never tried to negotiate a 'free' case when you purchased a cell phone? You never asked a police officer/meter maid to consider letting you off the hook, even though you weren't 'entitled' to a Get Out of Jail Free card?

If you've never asked for anything you haven't been 'entitled' to, never ever lied or cheated, well, I think we need to get you canonized (and I'm not even Catholic), because you're the real deal. If you have, however, well, gosh darnit, you might just be dragged down to my human level after all.

I'll reserve my right to be judged for when I'm sitting in front of the jury, thanks.

--bc

Sure you don't. Then explain this statement:


Well the plan that you applaud and would try a couple of times yourself is no mere "loophole" nor have I a quarrel with one who tries to obtain FF on a one shot basis, but it is the repeated efforts to attempt to do same when it is quite clear that you are not permitted to do so and your intial attempts to do so are rebuffed -- only then do I think that more than skirts the ethical boundaries of behavior.

Nevertheless, I am not trying to enforce any sort of morality here as your are all grown up adults, I am just sharing my views on the subject and nothing more.

I will gladly accept your claim that your:

Res Ispsa Loquatir.




[This message has been edited by NJUPINTHEAIR (edited 05-16-2003).]

Bostonchef: your examples are not really the same (ie. asking for a free case with the cell phone) because in this sort of negotiation process, the seller is knowingly giving you an added-value. In the case of trying to get your FF# in the system on a Priceline ticket, I highly doubt that it is possible if the employee knows the rules, and is paying close attention to what he/she is doing. The only way to get the number in the reservation is probably because the employee is unaware of priceline tickets (ie. new employee)

When it comes to FF miles, it is us (PAX) against them (Airline Mgt).

This BBS is all about getting miles.

Even if you have a fraudulent way to earn miles, there is no harm in posting it or asking about it.

I am not sure what is happening to this place, it used to be a way to learn how to earn more miles and work the system.

In early 2001, I booked 2 very inexpensive PL tickets that both cost me only $100 total. (LAX-SFO & LAX-PHX) On the LAX-SFO, they were oversold, I volunteered but didn't need me. I received a CS50 from UA. On the other ticket, they needed volunteers on the PHX-LAX return. I received $600 in UA vouchers (4 x $150 book). After that trip, I found FT & ended up getting 4 trips on UA with those vouchers (thanks to mileage run threads!) & getting double miles with these revenue tickets. (due to Prem Ex status on UA). http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I didn't care about not getting miles on the PL tickets. I didn't bother to ask for mileage because I wasn't entitled to getting mileage.

JRF,
I totally agree with you. These BBS's were designed for FF's like us to maximize our mileage earning. We should probably just leave it at that.. If someone feels it's unethical to get miles for a flight that you're not entitled to, then be ethical. What about all the benefits that airlines are stripping from flyers? I think what I do is totally justified... But that's just it.. i do it, not forcing anyone else to do it.. just sharing a way to maximize miles - interpret on your own whether or not its fraudulent or ethical...

thanks!

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Skymiles, OnePass, AAdvantage, British Airways