Should I charge my rent?
 

Edit to say I've determined my initial thoughts of this not being a good deal were correct. Thanks everyone for your advice.

Ok. I am 99% sure that this is not the proper place to post this, but afterr almost 2 hours of searching for the right place, this is the closest I could find. Please don't flame me if I chose the wrong place.

Ok, my apt. complex gives the option to charge rent with a 5% fee added on. I have read threads on mile values and I think this is is def. a bad deal but wanted to make sure:

$845.00 a month with an added 5% fee

charged to my miles earning card gets me 845 miles for $845 + $42.50 total $887.50 for 845 miles is euqal to .05 per mile right? After reading for a long time it seems I shouldn't do anything more than .02 per mile right?

tia

[This message has been edited by Prncs (edited 04-13-2003).]

Probably not a great value (p.s. you'd get 887 miles, not 845), but it could be useful once or twice if you needed just a few miles for an award you were trying to get.

Yes, for non-status mile purposes, you would be overpaying in a big way doing this. Save that money for good mileage runs, weekend fares etc. that will boost your mileage and your status.

This would be a horrible deal paying 5 cents each for bonus miles.

There are many opportunities for thousands of bonus miles at little or no cost via credit cards, telecommunications, dining, hotel/cars and flying.

Pay rent in cash and use the $44 to buy 2 months worth of ATT internet through AA for 10000 miles.

lol..my brain is fried! can you tell? lol

thank you all three for confirming things for me. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

hmm...that ATT deal sounds great even if I do have dsl! What a deal! thanks for mentioning that.

the internet offer got me thinking..anyone else have a suggestion on how to better spend those 44 dollars? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I read in a magazine where they said the places that accept credit cards are often more expensive. Even if this is not the case, they do charge you 5% to use your credit card.

I wouldn't do it unless you were short of money and needed to finance it. If this is the case, you need some serious financial planning to avoid such a cash crunch.

Miles are not what they used to be. Hawaii awards are now more expensive (see posts from today). Airlines are making it hard to redeem awards (see Continental and other posts over the past few months).

"If this is the case, you need some serious financial planning to avoid such a cash crunch."

nope..just kills me to spend 845.00 a month adn not earn one mile. lol

I hate bills that I can't pay with my cc. Electric and car insurance. etc

I agree -- but it hurts more to pay a percentage for the privilege of using a card. For big purchases I always ask for a cash discount. You'd be surprised how often this meets with success!

I would check with your credit card provider, since every credit card provider adds in their contract with their vendors that credit card transactions cannot be assessed any fees, or surcharges or increases in the price. (However, the merchant, can offer a cash discount.)

I thing the AT&T 10,000 mi. internet deal was over 4-1-03. I signed up in March and tried to sign my wife up 4-3-03 and the deal was gone. Keep looking, there are more deals around.

You may be confused with minimums, which are universally forbidden. Surcharges are subject to state law and inconsistent policies, but ARE often not valid. Nevertheless, is not a cash discount valid? How can a third party regulate terms of a deal between two other parties? As opposed to the minimum, in which the third party now has a say, namely, "you can't require a minimum purchase when using my services".

Nevertheless, I would heartily recommend you do a little research. The outcome could mean a lot of miles for you. And, according to one source, surcharges are indeed illegal in California.

If this is correct, you may simply need to find the statute and send a letter citing it and explaining you want your rent charged to the card with no surcharge. End of discussion.

Goood luck!



[This message has been edited by Rut Dog (edited 04-12-2003).]

Actually, minimums are legal, at least on American Express. I emailed them once complaining about a merchant that had a minimum and received a response from American Express that minimum charges are in fact permitted.

Rut dog-

thanks so much for linking that info! I wil def. be looking into that. Any idea where to look on hte web for those statutes? My leasing officec is full of @sses and I would def. need some hard core proof before they even replied to my request. If this is indeed true by Ca law, I am super pissed that I missed out on 14,365 miles >:/

for anyone interested, this is the info that the link provided:

"Credit card surcharges and cash discounts
In some states the customer can be assessed a surcharge for using a credit card. However, there are laws against credit card surcharges in CA, CO, CT, FL, KS, MA, ME, NY, OK and TX. Additionally, Visa and MasterCard prohibit surcharges. American Express discourages them in general, and prohibits merchants from charging them if they also accept MasterCard or Visa. Discover allows surcharges on credit card purchases except in the above states. According to Bankcard Holders of America, there is one exception to the no surcharge law. If you pay state license fees by credit card, you may have to pay a surcharge. There are no exceptions for retail merchants. "

Yeah, make your landlord upset... for a few miles. It is legal for him to increase the rent every year and legal for him to do a lot of things that make your life miserable. For example, better make sure that there is no noise after 10pm or whatever stated on your lease, and you are not late in your rent by one day. Otherwise, he will get an excuse to evict you.

I think it's not worth it trying to "force" your landlord into acepting some legal loopholes. They will turn around and do the same to you.

[This message has been edited by MoreMiles (edited 04-12-2003).]

moremiles, if you knew what I put up with now you would tell me to go for it.

My ceiling nearly caved in due to flooding which they refused to fix. I finally got them to let me hve a new apt which I had to move myself into after moving out of the old one. They wanted me to live in a molding disgusting smelly apt. Then I move into the new one and guess what 3 weeks later I have fleas. I have no pets btw. It took them 2 weeks to get an exterminator. They repeatedly enter without permission. They never give the state required 24 hours notice and have walked in on me half naked more than once.

I am really not concerned with upsetting them..I already have reporrted them to the housing authority.

also, the rent is automatically increased every year no matter what.

*I* am always the one calling to complain about the noise problems...I've called the policec several times due to a man and his knife (long story) and the guy next door who loves to blare music with swear words while young children are frolicking in the pool..nothing is ever done about it..if I'm going to live this way I might as well get 11040 miles per year! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

It's finally time to post. Having looked over the boards for months now, I've really enjoyed FT. But this topic got me. First, your landlord accepts Credit Cards as a convenience. There is a cost that comes with accepting Credit Cards. This cost is being extended to you, so that those who choose not to use credit cards do not have to pay it. Should you decide to get the law after your landlord, I would suspect your landlord would simply pull the plug on the CC machine, hense screwing every other renter that uses the CC option as it was intended. FOR THOSE TIMES WHEN YOU CAN'T PAY CASH.

As for complaining, the fact that you are already the one complaining probably explains why your landlord dosen't just waive the fee, knowing it would make one of his renters extreemly happy. What goes around, comes around.

I disagree. I think having apartment complexes accept credit cards is a great idea FOR THEM. It gives them a way to guarantee they get paid.

Worried they'll receive the rent late? Worried they let a deadbeat move in? Get the imprint, and charge the card on the 1st of every month. They can always refund it if someone pays cash.

Whether or not they are a "retail merchant" is a gray area.

I almost moved into a complex that accepted credit cards, and I was excited. However, in looking around it seemed that they charged about 15% more than the average rent in the area for nothing special.

If the surcharge wasn't there, it would no doubt be a good idea.

If you add up all the miles you are going to get, and compare the value of what you can get through your airline, does it equal or exceed the cash value of the extra 5% per month? (i.e. if you pay $50 extra per month for two years, e.g. $1200, and you get 1,000 miles per month for two years, i.e. 24,000 miles, are the two equivalent in your eyes?)
--Alex

This is a wee bit off topic for this thread, but since the comment came up here I'll post this here too. The AT&T 10,000 AA miles deal is still going. You need to sign up by May 31, 2003.

http://download.att.net/aaweb/

I must say I can't believe my little situation brought you out of lurking.


sorry to disappoint, but I never even asked about the credit card issue. It was mentioned on a piece of paper given to me when I moved in. I have never asked them to waive the fee and even if I had, it would have been a long time ago and my complaints only started 3 months ago after my ceiling almost fell in.

Your "what goes around comes around could also be said for them. They don't give a rat's @ss about the peopole who live here and now it's coming back to bite *them* in the @ss. They tell us they can't afford to fix the roof and never will be able to afford to which is a saftey issue yet they are currenty remodeling all the washers and driers, replaced every apt door and lock system (300+), recarpeted all the hallways, repainted all the hallways. All for what??? Shouldn't our safety be more important that new carpets? The dept. of health seems to agree with me as they said it is illegal for them not to fix the roof.

Enough said. I really am not concerned with any other "you're going to regret it when they do XYZ" Something goes wrong here every few days and I just so can not even care about what they will try to do to me. We are already looking into lawyers as it is so if they were to try and evict us it would just be added to the list.

5% just isn't worth it. Instead with the money you save for NOT charging your rent, you could find a good flight deal, get miles for the flight for the money you would have spent. There are too many other ways of getting miles that do not cost you 5%. Keep reading flyertalk and you will find loads of "free" miles.

------------------
Ms.DtG

Without respect to whether it's a good idea to pay any fee for this, or whether it's good financial management to charge your rent even if there was no transaction fee, if you're going to do it, consider using

www.rentpayment.com

They will let you pay any landlord in the US, and charge 2.95% instead of the 5% your landlord is asking.

You could always pay the landlord's fee, and ask for a refund when you move out. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

The idea of credit card surchages being illegal in CA and TX (two places where I spend most of my time) piqued my interest enough to do some research.

While I did find lots of "fix your credit blah blah blah" sites discussing this issue,
I found very few concrete facts (legal statutes, etc) supporting these points. I suspect I will have to bug one of my friends
for access to their online law library (how hard can that be to navigate?). UPDATE: I have since found that the statutes themselves are easily found online -- but case precedents are what lawyers pay money to access.

What I did find out:
* Credit Card surcharges are against the law in CA, CO, CT, FL, KS, MA, ME, NY, OK. These statues were put in place when the Truth in Lending Act went into effect and forced merchants to disclose the full price for all goods/services being sold.

* Visa and Mastercard prohibit surcharges in the US (it's a problem in other countries -- probably due to much higher merchant processing fees). AMEX discourages surcharges (still allows them though) except when the merchant also takes Visa and MC (so as to level the playing field). Exception: the government can levy surcharges (ex: paying your income tax bill online).

* Merchants are naturally hesitant to list two prices for any item since that might lead to price discrimination. People don't like seeing two prices (see the Fed Bank of Chicago PDF)

* While surcharges are generally 'prohibited', there is no prohibition against giving a cash discount. If you think about it, THIS IS THE SAME THING. The only thing it changes is that - assuming a merchant always advertises the lowest possible price for an item - the advertised price must state "price quoted reflects an XX% cash discount."

For example, I've seen this recently in some mail order catalogs for computer hardware. I'm guessing it's because geeks are the only ones who might actually bother looking this stuff up.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Laws I've found so far
(not bad work considering I was trained as an engineer and not as a lawyer)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

8. Texas Credit Title
Title 4. Regulation of Interest, Loans, and Financed Transactions
Subtitle A. Interest
Chapter 339. Misc Provisions Relating to Interest

"339.001. IMPOSITION OF SURCHARGE FOR USE OF CREDIT CARD. (a) In a sale of goods or services, a seller may not impose a surcharge on a buyer who uses a credit card for an extension of credit instead of cash, a check, or a similar means of payment.

(b) This section does not apply to a state agency, county, local governmental entity, or other governmental entity that accepts a credit card for the payment of fees, taxes, or other charges."

http://www.occc.state.tx.us/pages/Le...s_01.htm#Ch339

---
Fair Credit Billing Act (15 USC 1666-1666j)
Title 15. Commerce and Trade
Chapter 41. Consumer Credit Protection
Subchapter 1. Consumer Credit Cost Disclosure
Part D. Credit Billing

1666f. Inducements to cardholders by sellers of cash discounts for payments by cash, check or similar means; credit card surcharge prohibition; finance charge for sales transactions involving cash discounts

"§ 167. Use of cash discounts
15 USC 1666f.
(a) With respect to credit card which may be used for extensions of credit in sales transactions in which the seller is a person other than the card issuer, the card issuer may not, by contract or otherwise, prohibit any such seller from offering a discount to a cardholder to induce the cardholder to pay by cash, check, or similar means rather than use a credit card.

(b) With respect to any sales transaction, any discount not in excess of 5 per centum offered by the seller for the purpose of inducing payment by cash, check, or other means not involving the use of a credit card shall not constitute a finance charge as determined under section 106, if such discount is offered to all prospective buyers and its availability is disclosed to all prospective buyers clearly and conspicuously in accordance with regulations of the Board."

http://www.ftc.gov/os/statutes/fcb/fcb.pdf

------
LINKS:
------
"A Study of the Interrelated Bilateral Transactions in Credit Card Networks"
A Good report by the Fed Bank of Chicago that discusses the history of surcharges
http://www.chicagofed.org/publicatio...eps-2001-2.pdf

Visa explicitly states that Surcharges are prohibited (note: this is noted under the Travel Industry section, so it might not hold up with an end-merchant who is not in that industry)
http://usa.visa.com/business/merchan...html?it=Search

Truth in Lending Act [Federal]
http://www.yourcredit.com/assets/pdf...l/usc/tila.PDF

Texas Commercial and Consumer Laws TOC (the most interesting article for me since I live in TX)
http://www.imprimaturpress.com/pdf/tx_consumer_toc.pdf

[This message has been edited by gunn (edited 04-14-2003).]

[This message has been edited by gunn (edited 04-14-2003).]

gunn, great research!

FloridaBound, welcome to FlyerTalk. Now, enough of the niceties for you, my friend. Your post got ME fired up. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

WHAT A BUNCH OF BLATHER! There are costs associated with collecting payments in ANY form. But they don't itemize the costs of depositing checks or cash. They just account for those as a cost of doing business and include it in calculating the price charged. Why should it be any different for credit cards?

And your notion that speaking up to the company about it will just get retaliation is ludicrous and shameful. You're blaming the victim of a crime, no matter how trivial a crime it may seem to you.

More power to you, Prncs. Give them H E double hockey sticks!



[This message has been edited by Rut Dog (edited 04-14-2003).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rut Dog:
[b]gunn, great research!

More power to you, Prncs. Give them H E double hockey sticks!

lol! Thanks for the support http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

I once had a landlord who accepted credit cards with a surcharge. They got away with it by using a third party provider. You weren't paying them with a credit card, you were paying the processing company your rent plus a fee. The rent was passed onto your landlord and the fee was retained for the processing service. In order to use the service, you had to call an (800) number.

I never bothered using the service because I don't value a frequent flyer mile as much as I value a shiny $.05.