Get Up! Stand Up!
 

This goes out to ALL members of Frequent Flyer program members.

The greedy self serving industry has begun its assault on its most loyal customers as surely as American troops assaulted Normandy nearly 60 years ago!!

We must prepare to fight back and to repel the assault on our perks. Each of you has a duty to participate in your boards organizing activity. The pain spent now in thwarting these ill-conceived attacks on what are supposedly their best customers is yet another example of how the industry continues to shoot itself in the foot. The effort expended now will reap superior benefits now as the dopes can't aforr to annoy the base to much. So kick and scream at every little tightening of your program.

The Delta Rats and US Cockroachs are hard to kill. I challenge you all to become active in the campaign against the draconian cuts to our perks.

Hmm. I still see airlines as partners and miles and points as (valuable) gifts and all this a bit as a game. Anyway I would not go as far and use war terminology. Inappropriate in my opinion, but I see many Flyertalkes take it very serious and would rather go out and fight than accept any changes in a miles program.

You know what Uli in normal times I would totally agree with you. But these are not ordinary times, they are extraordinary times and the battles fought now will preserve the key elements of "the Game" of which you speak.

As to your partner comment, I would submit that any business relationship that treated its "Partners" like the airlines treat us would be short lived indeed. IMHO they view us as lambs to be led to slaughter. Witness their arrogance and disdain to their most valued customers the frequent flyer. Uli it was a game for me too.

Now it's a skirmish soon to be all out war.

Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights, don't give up the fight.

We are not the airlines' partners. We are their customers.

The only value of a customer to a business is the revenue he/she will bring in, directly or indirectly, in the future.

Therefore, the only reason for a frequent flyer program is to enhance future revenue.

Unless an airline violates the terms of its program, complaining about reduced benefits, etc., sounds like a kid complaining "mommy/daddy made me go to bed too early."

While I'd like to keep my benefits as much as the next person, a bit less "gimme gimme" whining and a bit more Business 101 realism would be nice - and would, believe it or not, actually increase the likelihood that requests to maintain reasonable benefit levels will succeed. (It's easy for managers to ignore an "I want mine, to heck with you" complainer. It's harder for them to ignore well-reasoned business logic.)

And we think the pilots are trying to suck the very last breath out of the airlines. The airlines are out of money. The need to lower costs or stop operating. I don't want benefits or incentives to stop, buy I would like the airlines to continue operations. I am not sure that you can have both.

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dallasflyer

FF miles are kept on the liability side of the balance sheet at something like .00475 per mile or about half a penny! That means that they hold my roughly 500K on their books at around $2,350.00! That's about 3% of the revenue My company and I spent on airline tickets. Far LESS than the 5% to 10% they used to pay in commissions to travel agents. Don't listen to their media flacks about the cost of frequent flyer programs. read the financials. I don't give a Rats behind what they tell some moron in the media, I look at what they report to the SEC! They are attempting this money grab because they think we have no alternatives, that some perks are better than no perks! Well WRONG AGAIN! Look at it this way.

If you were in busines and could garner a steady revenue stream of 100 to 135 segments for 3% of the revenue value each and every year would you do it?

So in effect the FF Miles are my commissions for being loyal customer. If you were in Sales and your boss wanted to cut your commission rate from 3% to 2.25% would you just stand there and take it? If so I know tons of companies in the office products field that would to have folks like you to overacheive and accept less in compensation. FF miles and perks are my compensation for being away from home and people I care about. I'm going down swinging

"It is better to die on your feet then live on your knees"

BTW I prefer a nice crisp german reisling or piesporter with my cheese thanks for asking!



[This message has been edited by PineyBob (edited 03-12-2003).]

[edited to delete response caused by misreading original post. Must still be too sleepy to post...]

[This message has been edited by MKE-MR (edited 03-12-2003).]

Talk about misguided anger. Bobby have a bran muffin and stay off that piney bench, the splinters are making you grumpy. This isnt a war, you have the top 6 air carriers reeling under the weight of overpaid employees. (overpaid here is not a judgement of talent level, but in the case of Expenses v. Revenue) Paying too much in salaries and not enough income. Bob you dont have anywhere else to go. Air travel is a monopoly, cracking the ranks is nerly impossible. Read herb kellehers book about SW Air. Even if you send all you business to SW, you cant travel abroad. What are you going to do, drive there ? LOL

Actually I DO have someplace to go, and YES I'm GRUMPY! The last part in NOT news, maybe it's my hemmoroids from all those US Turbo Props! those seats are not Cockroach friendly!

I have been steadily researching my business travel patterns and I have found that exactly 100% of my business trips could have been flown on a combination of discount carriers not named SWA. If US ultimately fails, the combination of Midwest, ATA and Spirit will cover every single trip I made in 3 years of flying.

Since I haven't done any overseas flying for business or pleasure I'll cross that bridge later.

As for the monoply aspects of the business and the "you can't beat'em" attitude espoused here, I would remind you that 56 people banded together and changed the course of the world forever when they signed the Declaration of Independence.

I don't know if the Cockroaches and DL group will have any lasting impact on the industry. But I do know that standing and fighting the unbridled arrogance of an industry run amok feels mighty good to me. Maybe I am tilting at windmills, but gosh darn it I REFUSE to be one of the sheeple ever again. To much has happened to me in my personal non FT/FF life to ever sit by and watch things go by.

"It is better to die on your feet, then live on your knees"

I think it's naive to say that "airlines are doing poorly, it's because their employees are overpaid." Airlines are managed in an embarrassingly poor manner.

Think about it this way: 50 years ago, if you had a chance to invest $10,000 (without the benefit of hindsight), air travel might have seemed like just the thing. After all, it was safe, growing, profitable -- this could be your chance to get in on IBM on the ground floor! But wait ... Eastern goes belly-up. Pan-Am, TWA. Take your pick. Airlines have a long history of mis-management, and it's not because they're making their employees so ungodly rich. And it's not because they are giving away so much in frequent flyer programs.

They're just in a rut of poor business. Granted, running an airline is expensive with fuel costs, buying and maintaining planes, keeping a happy public face, and all that. The bottom line is that you can't cut corners in the airline business -- if you do, your planes crash and people die. There are too many important safety factors at stake. But the airlines haven't been creative enough, for the most part (Southwest, JetBlue), to reconcile the important public service they provide with the ability to do it profitably. They need to start looking to other places to cut the fat.

There's not any huge reason to panic over the current state of air travel, either. It's not like the airlines are all going to go out of business at the same time. The history of commercial aviation in the U.S. has been one of airlines coming and going. To stop break cycle, the industry has to re-evaluate its business model and start doing things differently from the ground-up. It's hard, there's no denying, because safety is such an important factor. But that doesn't mean it can't be done. All this bellyaching about the cost of frequent flyer programs and employees simply provides a more convenient scapegoat than addressing the real problem.

To compare FF'ers battling airlines over perks to the Founding Fathers battling religious oppression, taxation, etc. is a bit of a stretch.

You're taking all this way too seriously. Lighten up, have some wine, watch some porn, get laid, and call us in the morning.

Responding in order:

1. The anger management classes failed! It's the airlines turn to get dumped on by me!
2. Opening a Merlot for diner tonight!
3. Have one in the VCR
4. See "Sweet Thing" this weekend
5. You didn't leave your number!

And BTW it is a definite stretch but the visual and verbiage are indeed dramatic don't you think?

Bob, you will continue to have naysayers no matter what, so plow ahead! There are many supporters.

Yes, the airlines are in financial trouble, no doubt about it. But that is hardly the fault of its customers and you can't blame the FF programs. For years, the FF programs have been viewed by naysayers and the media as a huge cost drain on the airlines. Now the programs (and by extension, frequent flyers) have become the whipping boys. How many times must it be noted that FF programs are one of the few profitable aspects of the airline business? Selling miles to companies for somewhere between 1.5 and 2.0 cents each means that a typical 25K domestic coach award ticket generates the airlines $375-$500 in revenue. This is, in many (most?) cases, MORE than the airline would have received if they actually sold the seat to a customer! And 25K domestic coach awards are the ones most frequently redeemed. I'm not certain, but I believe over 50% of award redemptions (Randy, if you are reading, perhaps you can supply the exact figure) are for domestic coach award tickets. In the current environment, where planes are hardly full, these awards are seats which would have gone empty anyway....loss to the airlines is close to $0.

The airlines have used the FF mileage gravy train to their advantage for years. Once again, it's not the customers fault that airlines have sold more miles than they are able to accommodate award tickets for. If they had provided suitable redemption opportunities all along, maybe they wouldn't be feeling the pinch of mileage liability and feel so compelled to strip us of benefits and devalue miles. Suddenly, after we have given loyalty to specific airlines in the way of paying higher fares and taking mileage runs, they want to move the goalposts. It's nonsense.

Frankly, with a couple of exceptions, the responses from airlines when customers have protested past FF program changes has been underwhelming. I don't expect much to come of the protests to Delta, BA, or others this time around either. If this is how the airlines want to play the "game", fine, but I've already made changes in my habits that will benefit my wallet, not theirs. Loyalty is basically out the window. Amongst other things:
1. No more mileage runs
2. No more purchase of FC upgrades. If I have some earned upgrades in my account fine, I'll use those.
3. Will fly SW, JetBlue, or other discounters if the price differential is enough to overcome the miles I would have received on my regular airline.
4. Re-assessed my valuation of miles and, since the airlines have raised redemption levels, I have been forced to cut their value. In addition, have begun taking award availability into account in my valuations. Of course, as I cut my valuation, it means the price differential between the discounters and the majors needs to be less to justify taking the discounter, ergo, more business for the discounters and less for the majors.
5. Lobbying my corporate travel department to part ways with DL (one of our preferred carriers) when our contract is up.
6. Letting friends know about the various FF program changes (read that as devaluations) so they can at least investigate and re-think their choice of airlines.
7. Giving bulk of business, where possible, to AA (as long as fare justified) because of MRTC.
8. No leisure business to DL or CO unless they are absolutely the lowest price for a particular trip. In CO's case, because I value their miles so low (about .85 of a cent each since award availability sucks) they need to have a significantly lower price than others for me to fly them.

In summary, it all comes down to value...a tricky equation that includes ticket price, miles, elite benefits, schedule, routing, and service. Those airlines that continue to want my business by offering a good value proposition (at least relative to other airlines), will get it, the others won't.

Here's my two cents...

I run a national retail division that supplies product to large home center type chains… think Home Depot - Lowe's etc.

In the constant pursuit of efficiency, lower costs of goods etc..we are constantly evaluating our processes from packaging to product formulation and equipment to determine where positive changes can be made.

With any change we make, here is one thing that must stay constant in order for us to continue to offer products, that constant is end user customer satisfaction. If I cut corners or make changes that result in an inferior product I will most likely lose market share.

There have been times where the decisions we made were not the smartest, (i.e. Those that use our product frequently are not the type of customers we want…B. Ben Baldanza). When that happens I generally learn about it from an email or a phone call from a long time user of our product. My job is to sift through this feedback and determine what is legitimate and what is just whining by the consumer. (The whining part happens a lot BTW).

Based on this feedback we determine if changes are necessary to maintain our reputation for quality products.

The point I am trying to make is that any company worth its salt will value honest feedback from its customers because they know or should know these customers that send feedback are among their most loyal. Of course these feedback should be given in an appropriate manner. If the feedback appears to be just whining me,me,me stuff it will get ignored.

So, I for one will continue to send feedback to any company where I do not like changes made. This includes Airlines who make bone headed decisions.

Bob…count me in as one of your supporters, within reason that is..and pass the porn.

rawbert

In my mind there is a big difference between complaining about the quality of a product or service on the one hand and complaining about changes in an incentive program offered to buy that product or service on the other.

My point is any change that an Airline needs to take to keep solvent is met with hostility. Cutting Pension or wages or Employees the Union is all over your ... blocking the process. Reduce FF benefits or require more loyalty to earn perks and the FF's swear you off and move on to another airline. Except that as a FF I cant move to another carrier. It seems like AA is the FF program du jour. Does AA have that many less warts ?

Point is that no change would have been exceptable in their FF program. Can somehere really tell me that if your airline of choice reduced miles earned or increased award prices that you would tolerate it ? I dont think so. So how do they survive, no FF is willing to give an inch without *****ing about it.

Everyone has a gripe, no one has a solution to the current and impending doom of many airlines. I for one am tired of using tax dollars to bail them out, and I have miles on 4 different airlines, so I am bound to lose something if they fold like a tent.

OK Please tell me how the unions at US "blocked" the process? They gave not once, but as many as 4 separate times to save US. They are even willing to renegotiate the ALPA pension after some legal wrangling.

As for choices, I have 3 distinct choices if US alters DM significantly or not to MY liking. First choice is CO One Pass, which is an OK program. Already talked to them and they will comp me status EQUAL to US earned status. DL is another less palatable option. The third is a combination of discounters not named SWA who can get me 100% of the places I went the last three years.

Unlike a union and their wages, I do not have to accept cuts in my FF program, as i pointed out I have options. It is neither my fault or my worry whether they have a healthy bottom line, that is the shareholders worry not mine. My job is to be a good customer, and a good customer is:

1. loyal and responds to and takes advantage of promotions in return he/she gives the bulk of the business to that company

2. a PAX who knows and plays by the rules set forth by the company, leveraging them to his/her full advantage.

3. someone who pays the published fare that best meets their requirements!

4. someone who understands exactly what the airlines have control over and holds his vendor to its policies and procedures and voices his concerns when they don't meet their obligations under the rules.

5. Is polite, courteous and professional in his/her dealings and expects the same in return

6. someone who understands value and realizes that the sour taste of poor performance lingers long after the sweetness of low price is gone!

I perform these 6 duties each and every time I fly. I fulfill my obligation as a ticket buyer and in return for being a good customer I recieve certain benefits. If the company providing the service decides to alter their loyalty program in a way that is detrimental to me personally or my company then I am duty bound as a customer to revaluate that relationship and voice concerns and if required take my business elsewhere. As for the financial woes of the majors i ask you the following?

1. Do I set Prices?
2. Did I create the fare rules and structure?
3. Did I design and implement the FF programs?
4. Did I drive away the last minute business traveler?
5. Did I make the following statement to USA Today? and enrage my core customers at a critical time in the companys history?

"Someone who flies a lot isn't necessarily loyal if what they're doing is buying the lowest-priced ticket every time they fly," he says. "That's not necessarily the kind of loyalty we want to reward. We want to reward those people who pay a premium for the services we offer." (B. Ben Baldanza)

Seems to me that if the major airlines want to see the cause of their current woes I would humbly submit that Mssrs. Siegel, Carty, Mullins, Bethune, Anderson and Tilton stand in front of a freaking mirror!!! These so called leaders don't know the last thing about how to treat customers never mind the first thing. I mean let's see we're in the worst economic situation in modern aviation history, Let's see just how many of our core customers we can alienate on the road to bankruptcy!

To me the place to spend the limited marketing resources would be in strengthening the FF programs. Example: US emerges from BK, They announce some minor enhancement to DM and actively solicit DL Sky Miles members in light of the changes made there. They offer Sky Miles member all kinds of challenges and comp status and steal a ton of loyal customers from their key east coast competititor. That's Business 101. think we'll see that? we might? US has NOTHING to lose and everything to gain.

I would have to generally side with the higher-expectations crowd. The point about liability being carried at low rates has been made and is telling, as it shows that airlines aggressively direct award redemption ability to seats that would have gone unfilled anyway.

And lest we forget, the airlines have made lots of money selling miles for use as incentives for non-flight activities. That's been directly responsible for the number of unredeemed miles getting so out of whack compared to the awards available. Then they come along and devalue...that's like issuing your own Monopoly money in exchange for real cash and then saying the Monopoly money is now worth only half what it was.

And finally, airlines are now also trying to milk change fees for award tickets as a big source of revenue. If you have a transcon AA award, for example, they could charge you $100 to make a change, or about the cost of flying one-way from Atlanta to L.A. on AirTran or JetBlue.

If the discounters could find a way to get people to Europe or Hawaii on awards through their own FF programs, they could pick off quite a bit of business from the Big 6, IMO.

Excellent post, PineyBob.

My wife spend more at Nordstroms than she does with any airline. She keeps going back because of the great service and selection, etc. She never goes back because of some sort of loyalty program, yet they do the best job in their respective industry. The capital markets will ultimately even things out as we will all migrate to the best overall air travel product. The complexities of the airline business and the uniqeness of the way funds are spent on air travel, i.e. "my bosses money", are just slowing and clouding the process of free markets; not changing them.

IF it was not for my lovely miles I would say that all the US airlines currently in trouble deserve no better than to go out of business. They screwed up badly. They screwed their employees, they screwed their customers, they screwed the taxpayers, and now they should just RIP. In this country which builds beautiful 777s, 747s, 737s, etc. some airlines operate about the oldest fleets in the Western world, still with 727s and DC9s the dream of any aviation historian. While I love my miles I do not want to wait until the first carrier takes out the bathrooms on flights under 6 hours to accomodate more passengers. Even though, with no more drinks this would be a viable option http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif