New Program: EleVAte from Virgin America
 

First, the good: VA is now selling tickets. Snagged an SFO-LAX r/t, with one leg in coach, the other in first, for the same price AA/UA are selling coach. A new program to join, a new set of rewards possibilities, perhaps a new airline to love. I have high hopes both for civilized service from SFO and more reasonable prices.... So far so good.

The new EleVAte program seems to allow a free r/t on any seat, any flight, after 4 r/t's or 4900 points. What constitutes a "point" isn't defined anywhere obvious. And whether the LAX r/ts count toward the 4 r/ts isn't stated equivocally, either. Here's hoping they clarify this, and do it soon and in our favor.

Now the minor bad news: In selecting seats, it appears that exit rows and bulkhead seats cost $15 extra.

One worrisome note: this appeared on the website on my second trip there, AFTER I booked my ticket--

"Virgin America does not currently have authority from the Department of Transportation to operate the services for which your ticket is being issued. You may, upon request, cancel your ticket and obtain a full refund at any time before we start operations. If we have not started operations by the date of your ticketed travel, we will make reasonable efforts to arrange substitute air transportation for you, at a cost of up to 200% of your Virgin America ticket. If we cannot arrange substitute transportation for you, we will refund to you 200% of the price paid for your Virgin America ticket."

OTOH, before the Anti-Virgin folks start bashing them, I'd almost welcome a delay in their operations, so I could collect a few freebies ahead of time..... spoken like a true longtime FT member...

Finally, it took a couple times thru the browser before I could actually complete the sale; there was an "Internal Error" . There is also a problem with their "Talk To Us" link; when I went to attempt this, it asked for an ID and password. PUtting in my EleVAte code was rejected. Pretty neat trick to avoid dealing with the customer service issue..........

Since it's still only 6 hours into their operation, I guess I can't be too critical, but "HEY FRED---- LET'S GET IT RIGHT, HUH?" (Rant, and report, over)

Points are based on spend, not distance or segments. You'll earn 5 points for every $1 you spend for travel on Virgin America

I read this: redeem a free trip for as few as 4,900 points. Earn a free flight after as few as 4 roundtrips, to mean that four roundtrips may generate the required 4,900 points, not that 4 roundtrips automatically qualifies for an award. However, it would look as if one transcontinental trip might generate 4,900 points because that is only $980 spend. Presumably this is for an economy class award.

http://virginamerica.com/va/whatIsel...wwhatIseleVAte

The website seems to be lacking critical details too. Like what kind of products/services are offered in first. Food? Great - in-seat massage...but I'd like more details.

If anyone finds this info could you please post a link?

Trying to hit VA site now, but it's reallllyyyy slow.

Mike

Edited to add: Just took a look at pricing on JFKSFO; picked a random weekend and got $139 OW in Y, $389 OW in F.

Mike

I don't think it is totally what you're looking for, but if you got to The VA Difference, here:

http://www.virginamerica.com/va/vaDifference.do

you can see some entertainment, seat, food options, and what not...

edit: not sure why the link isn't working, but just click the VA Difference at the top of the page.

Thanks THE soni! I'm going to check it out now but the site keeps timing out. Someone didn't do proper load testing :D

VA website comment
 

I just looked at the website. Looks OK, but acts like it's being served from a laptop somewhere. Did manage to get a quote SFO-LAX-SFO for a date next month for $44 each way coach. That's as far as I went. Didn't see how to get to F. Interesting, as their program might be good for a road warrior who goes up and down the coast a lot. Definitely bears watching.
I would think it's pretty basic to get the site working before going live with it. It's not that hard to do.

so basically $980 bux buys you a free roundtrip?

wow

--Russ

Parallel discussion here...

http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=715882

Lucky you! As far as I know (not having experienced this myself, but just read about it...) Virgin Atlantic charges GBP 50 (=$100 at current exchange rates) for reserving an exit row seat.

Looks very half-baked. I think I joined Elevate, but the user experience was so bad I don't really know for sure. I got a server error, but I think it happened after my profile was established.

Oh...there...I was able to login. Hmmm. Not very impressive. These guys still appear to be very much in "alpha" mode. Lots of work to do between now and August 8th.

The reason airlines have avoided tying FF points/awards to dollars spent is because the current disconnect is the principal argument on why awards are not taxable income to the user. The theory may be put to the test with this program.

Seems like that shouldn't be a huge problem...when I redeem a coupon at the grocery store, it's not taxable income. And within the travel industry, the hotels are already tying their rewards programs closely to dollars spent (granted, with bonus promotions on the earning side and hotel categories on the redemption side that keep it *slightly* detached from a straight percent-off discount). Even if my client is paying for the hotel room and I'm receiving the points, it's not a legal/tax issue.

To me, the downside to the simple rebate approach is that the program isn't as exciting. The marketing sizzle isn't there. I simply think "Gee, shouldn't my flights simply be 20% (or whatever) cheaper?" To me, the lure to fly Virgin America is the eventual ability to fly Upper Deck to Europe. If they tie too closely to revenue on the redemption side (which they'll have to if they are serious about no capacity controls), that award will be out of reach.

Not so, at least among "legacy" U.S. carriers. The real reason is that purchase patterns of "bottom feeders" are far more susceptible to this sort of influence than those of pax who spend more. Tying points/miles to spending would reward people who statistically* don't much care, while missing an opportunity to score big with folks who do. Discount economy tickets may not be as profitable as full Y or paid F, but they're a heck of a lot more profitable than empty seats.

VA may think their market is non-traditional in this regard, they may be influenced by European FF program patterns (which originated in a market where airline choice is influenced by different factors, so motivating pax who have already chosen an airline to pay more is a major goal), they may figure it's worth a shot, or they may be making a mistake. Time will tell.

There are many reward programs outside the airline business whose rewards are tied to spending. (I'm personally in those of Staples and REI, to name just two.) Taxability of those rewards has never been an issue. The tax issue with airline FF awards has to do with separating out how much of the fare is for transportation versus credits toward an award and issues along those lines, not with how credit toward awards is earned or calculated.

___________________________
*FTers are not typical. Repeat: FTers are not typical.

Have they announced that this will definitely happen?

If not, I wouldn't count on it.

Virgin Express in Europe never tied its FF program to Virgin Atlantic's. (It now longer exists, since it merged with SN Brussels and they've now combined into Brussels Airlines and have just one FF program. Still nothing to do with Virigin Atlantic of course.)

The much easier way to eventually fly Upper Deck on Virgin to Europe is through partner activity with some partners who give way more to Virgin than to most any US airlne. Like Avis giving you a flat 1000 Virgin (Atlantic) miles per rental, when for US-based airlines it (and other rental companies) only give a platry 50 miles a day. There are equivalents in some hotel programs too.

Virgin Blue isnt connected either, and i seem to recall them having the same kind of spend based points

Nope. Therein lies the problem - why would I shift business away from the Star Alliance to a very small carrier unlinked to anyone else? The only compelling reason I'd fly Virgin America is if I have good tie-ins at least to Europe. Would prefer a partnership that can get me to Asia too, but I'd start with Virgin Atlantic's own metal to London.

True - I know I can go the partner route, but it still doesn't give me any incentive to actually fly Virgin.

These same reasons are why I don't fly a lot of U.S. niche carriers. When I redeem awards, I'm doing it for leisure travel and I want maximum choices, maximum destinations, many partner options. Love the Virgin idea, but I hope they tie it in to the rest of their network.

^^^

Actually I think this is good news and intelligent market-based pricing. Why give away products that have value which can be monetized? This means that I will be able to snag an exit row seat if I am willing to pay for it, v. needing 1P status (50k miles annually) for the same product on UA.

Makes sense if you pay for international travel and aren't fed up with your legacy carrier's service. But for those of us who live in Virgin territory, i.e. SFO and fly mostly domestic to world-class cities like NYC, Vegas, etc. the superior product will be very attractive.

Agreed. But even a program like UA Mileage Plus - which theoretically offers "maximum choices" - is a sham when there is zero saver award inventory in business class on the most popular international routes.

Does anyone know what the Founding member status is? I am assuming it does not mean anything more than regular Elevate status.

Also, any idea if there wlll be tiers to their elite status and if matching will work from similar airlines like Airtran?

Founding member is anyone who joins before Dec. 2007. The idea being that early adopters will get something "special" later on. What that is, nobody knows.


I don't get the impression that VX will be offering "tiers" just yet. It's more of a Southwest model : simply fly more, get more free flights.

(Which will no doubt upset the "I want a gold card, I'm important" gang... ;) )

VX's booking engine sucks. I selected an outbound, then on the next page where I selected my return I had to reselect the outbound because it doesn't automatically select it.

Worse, they don't tell you the total price including taxes and fees until the last page of the booking process. You have to give your name, address and phone number before they'll tell you what the final price is. :rolleyes:

I hate airlines that try to scam people with this tax and fee obscurity. :td:

My guess is either a different colored card or the word "Founder" on the FF card. I don't expect anything else.

With you guys on this one. If it was anything special, they probably wouldn't make the promotion months-long. Can't hurt to keep the faith though.

I saw them unwrapping the checkin terminals and doing other various set up things at the new VA counter at LAX a couple weeks ago. A very sleek looking setup, and you could feel some excitement in the air from the VA people who were directing the work.

I think, if nothing else, it should compete with ATA, WN, etc. for LAS and LAX/SFO trips. Will I move any of my UA spend over there? Not biz travel, and probably not any personal jaunts to LAS.

Oh, No IAD/JFK? Boo. The one thing I might use them for is an alternative to UX or Amtrak for that. :(

Vegas...world-class city...:D :D Forget about Vegas for a moment...SFO-LAS is a short hop. Whoever gets me there on-time wins the business. But SFO-JFK - that's a route where the existing carriers (UA, AA, etc.) compete with their "premium domestic" service. The three-cabin planes, the best they have to offer short of international.

So thinking about that, will VX F compare favorably to to UA or AA J? Is that how they will eventually be pricing it? VX Y appears inferior to UA E+ and maybe on-par with AA's LRTC. So to me, the value on VX is if I'm buying F tickets. VX has clearly given the nod to UA in terms of the back of the bus - I don't think they have plans for any 35 or 36 inch service in Y.

Yeah...I know all of the big programs are a bit hit and miss on availability. Maybe it's because I usually don't fly at max-peak holiday times, but I usually have good luck with UA and AA. I just recently finished planning and booking an 8-segment int'l F itinerary and was able to get everything I wanted. My only complaint for UA: it would have been very, very difficult to book this without "outside" help. (Namely, using ANA to sift through all of the options first, because UA phone agents aren't that proactive or creative.)

True. Coupons are like sales. You haven't realized any taxable income.

Frequent flyer miles are a bit different. Everyone knows that they have some value. The problem is deciding what value and when it is realized. I don't think we have anything to worry about just yet. As the IRS has said:

"There are numerous technical and administrative issues relating to these benefits on which no official guidance has been provided, including issues relating to the timing and valuation of income inclusions..."

They've also said:

"Consistent with prior practice, the IRS will not assert that any taxpayer has
understated his federal tax liability by reason of the receipt or personal use of
frequent flyer miles... This relief does not apply to travel or other promotional benefits that are converted to cash,"

Naturally, these quotes come with the caveat that I'm not affiliated with the IRS and am not providing tax advice to anyone. Long story short, I really like the looks of Virgin's FF program! Simple and generous. :)

Exit row pricing for their transcons JFK-SFO appears to be $25 so if you want it both ways it adds another $50 to your ticket raising the cost to over $500. They mention an additional 6 inches of pitch for a total of 38 inches which implies a standard pitch of 32 inches. While better than average their transcon price is also just that, average. No mention of the cost for the AVOD but I don't believe I read that it'll be free either, just available.

Movies will be PPV; other programming, free. At least that's what they were saying at launch.

If they're not charging for the in-seat power you could at least bring your own AVOD I suppose.

Hmmm, VX coach is superior to UA and AA in every way except for legroom in E+ and that is offset by the paid access to exit row seats. So for coach VX is a no brainer. As for F, we don't know how VX will compare but UA and AA service is so bad (including the outrageously priced PS) that it is hard to imagine VX will be inferior and certainly will be a better value pricewise for the vast majority who pay to upgrade (unless you are one of the fortunate top level elites who can upgrade these routes for free).

Over the past 20 years of flying I have also had pretty good luck with getting FF seats in Y or C to just about everywhere I wanted to go at the times I wanted to go (including summers or holidays). However, the whole blackout of advance saver inventory for XC on some of UA's most popular international routes has left me with a lot of resentment (and your point about the phone agents, nee ICC, is well taken).