Getting FF points on cancelled, non-refundable tickets
 

A week ago I had to cancel a non-refundable ticket on NW due to changed plans. When I canceled it, the agent told me that although the ticket price would be forfeited, the airport taxes (about 1/3 of the total price) would be refunded which made me pretty happy.

Anyhow, I then got to thinking about FF points. Since I paid for the ticket, wouldn't it logically follow that I should get the points? They got a paid-for seat which they could resell or at the very least save on meals, baggage handling etc which are all sunk costs in the ticket price. I'm quite certain that no FF plan would give points in such a situation, but don't you folks think that a fairly legitimate argument exists in favor of awarding points? Any loopholes I should be looking at?

3...2....1....

No points are awarded, precisely because you can then do "on paper" milage runs. Many more people will be happy to book useless flights and get miles if they did not have to actually sit on airplanes all day. Futhermore, people would then be able to book conflicting flights, and flights they have no way of catching all for the miles, especially on mistake fares.

The airlines don't like people doing milage runs, and the requirement to actually be in the airplane significantly reduces the number of people who would be willing to endure doing a MR.

So? What's wrong with on-paper mileage runs? Considering I'm going to do it anyway, I *should* be able to tell the airline that I'm doing it for a mileage run and cancel without refund to get the FF points and let the airline re-sell the seat. That way, the mileage runners get something back (airport taxes and the comfort of staying at home) and the airlilne gets something back (the ability to sell the seat for more revenue).

... and by sell the seat again, I meant sell it at a higher price. That way the airline can compensate and make up in revenue what they lost from the mileage runner's future desires.

What is really interesting about this post is the offer to refund taxes. This was widely discussed with the $0 ACA fares last year when everyone wanted to cancel and get their $106 taxes refunded but AA didn't refund anyone's. can anyone confirm. Does NW do this and AA doesn't? I have previously said if the airlines are charging taxes and probably not remitting them especially on cancelled flights to foriegn governments I bet there is a class action suit on its way.

Think about this. When does the airline remit the taxes.

The flight departs with the seat empty. Are the taxes remitted? What if it was a reundable ticket? Are they going to remit the taxes then and again if the passenger then transfers his ticket value to another flight.

I suspect the airline only pays the airport segment and customs and such fees based on the number of actual revenue passengers on each flight. So they pocket the fees on the 10% or so passengers that are no-shows. With 8,000 flights per day if that averages say $300 per flight you are talking about $2.4 million per day.

I hope I'm wrong. I an not anti-airline, but I'm afraid that some airlines are going to pay some major expenses if they are doing something like this.

The whole idea of these programs are that they are frequent flyer programs, not frequent buyer programs.

Mike

...and yet, we all know people who have even reached elite status by just using a credit card for an airline FFP

Short of special programs, the only airline that does this is American, and that is only for lifetime status. If one is going to get lifetime status only through credit card spending, he/she must spend a million dollars at the least to do so.

That, however, is comparing apples and oranges, as the reference is to the mere purchase of tickets to gain elite qualifying miles in a given year. I'm aware of no airline that allows that.

Mike

mjet - I bough a ticket in Bratislava in December for a Lufthansa/UAL flight PRG-MSP. Non-refundable, non-changeable. It was one day before my departure and I still didn't have the visa and I was running around angry, because I didn't want to lose the money. The travel agency told me that at least my taxes would be refunded if I didn't fly. Then someone else suggested calling lufthansa directly and asking them if the ticket can be cancelled and the money paid for the ticket be applied for a future ticket/upgrade.

Supposedly, the customer service people are told to refuse such refund/upgrade requests, but if you push hard enough, they can do it.*

*you might need to lookup your exact farecode

Personally, I got my visa in the last hour and flew out without a problem - so I did use my ticket, but this might be a viable option to salvage the money paid for the ticket.

Also depending if you paid for the ticket with a credit card that provides some ticket insurance or if you took out travel insurance that would cover the cost of the ticket in case you have a medical emergency preventing you from flying on certain date - you might get your money back. "medical emergency documents" are not that difficult to get in Czech Republic.

from a graphic design and then fax standpoint, they aint hard to MAKE either... :D:D:D:D

Anyway, I have also been in situations where the AIRLINE cancels the ticket and BECAUSE it is NON REF NON CHG, they do not give back your money. Instead they offer you a voucher for future travel or see ya!

THAT is stupid and your CC should fight this, seeing as how the "product" you bought did not arrive or do what it was meant to do upon purchasing it.

QF refund your taxes & fuel levy - I have had it done in the past. I'm suprised to hear that AA doesn't.

Not true. The Delta AMEX card gives as much as 25K points in a year that count toward elite status, and that is enough to reach the Silver Medallion level. Also, all credits earned in Southwest's RR program, including credit cards, go toward the Companion Pass. And with United, you can simply pay a fee and get Premier status.

Thanks for the responses and lively discussion. A few comments:

I understand your point, but consider this:

The airline makes more money on tickets such as mine that go to waste and are canceled within a few days, allowing them to resell it or just have an empty seat that was paid for. The airline doesn't get any higher market value from me actually sitting on their plane, watching their videos, eating their food, and then them handling my bags. So if it's no skin off their backs, I don't see why they wouldn't allow it. They could set up a class of miles like credit card points that are not eligible for crossing level thresholds or some other restriction to prevent organized abuse (which I agree could be a problem) or they could even award a lower percentage of points like AF and KLM do on their budget economy fares (usually 25% of the usual mileage).

Mind you I'm not advocating a reform of the rules since I'm not an economist / econometrician running their numbers through complex models, but it seems that I've actually done them a bit of a financial favour by *not* showing up and not getting a refund.

And I'm also not bitter about losing the ticket - I signed a special waiver when I got the ticket stating that I understood the rate restrictions etc so I fully understood the situation when I found out I had to cancel.

Although some non-US jurisdictions may differ in their treatment, ticket taxes, departure taxes, customs fees, TSA fees, and landing fees are based on actual passenger traffic on any given flight on any given day.

Hence, when we all fly on "free" tickets, the airlines charge us these various taxes in most cases. Some, like B.A., are cheeky enough also to charge us for "fuel surcharges" and other fees which are not taxes.

Conversely, when we do NOT take the flight on a non-refundable ticket, the airline righly keeps the non-refundable fare, but it is proper to get one's taxes/fees back, since they are being collected on behalf of the various (and many) taxing authorities.

As for earning frequent flyer credits, personally, I feel since the airline did get your money (and in fact didn't even have to deliver the service), that you should be entitled to these credits. But every program of which I'm aware does not offer this benefit. However, I have heard of some FTers who OLCI for the missed flights in hope of getting the miles.

Doesn't matter. No airline does it. I'd be quite surprised if you wrote them and they responded with "what a brilliant point of view, no one ever explained it that way before, you're quite right that it does make sense, of course we will award you miles".

But good luck trying.

Brrrrrrrrrrilliant! :D

(I think it's kinda like feeding mayonaise to the tuna fish, but hey, that's been said :D)

With the exception of the WN Companion Pass (which I believe is a stretch calling that elite status), I believe that all of these examples only serve to prove my point that status is earned through non-flying only through special promotions.

Mike

You don't seem to acknowledge that it is lots of skin off their backs.

We do MRs seeking penny a mile (total miles) fares.

By allowing what you want the airlines to do, there would be able to be hundreds of thousands (or more) elite flyers! That would dilute the benifits to meaninglessness.

Even if they didn't accrue Elite Qualifying anything, it would result in BILLIONS more frequent flyer miles being issued each year, which has a cost associated with the redemption of those miles for non-revenue seats, and again the massive dilution of award availability for those who actually put their Butt-In-Seat. My BIS miles last year was just over 51k, but that translated into nearly a quarter million miles at just below a penny a mile. Think of what I could have accomplished if I had been able to "fake fly" every nice MR on that forum here. I guarantee I could have shot from peon to lifetime Platinum before the year was out, not having to pay for another flight for a decade or more, and coasting with lifetime second tier elite flyer benifits.

Also, AA sells those miles to companies for something like 2 to 2.5 cents per mile, so why would they undercut their own profits in that arena also?


Just from a basic standpoint, since noone allows it, obviously the airlines think the cost to them for that IS greater than the reward. They don't have to tell you why they think that--they do, so that's that.

I have a theory on why they wont do it... long shot but here goes:

1 x 5,000 = 5,000.

2 x 5,000 = 10,000.

0 x 5,000 = 0.

0 x 10,000 = 0.

Ok, so what?

Well, it's simple math. When you fly, you are 1 person earning 1 mile for every, well, mile they fly. You are ON the plane so you are attached to those miles. If it were to stop flying when you are on it, say, if it were to get re-routed in flight and touch down in a different airport due to say, weather or something, you may get less or more miles depending on that. You actually sat there GETTING the miles.

if you fly 5,000 miles, you GET 5,000 miles. Now, if you are elite, you may get double because of some promo or status allowance. that's why 2 x 5,000!

BUT...

If you do NOT fly, then you are personally getting 0 miles because you are not flying any miles! It does not matter WHAT status or promo you have, you get nuthin cuz you did nuthin! It flew without you and so you get 0.0. Not a good grade point average either! And, Mr. Blutowski, you puked ON Dean Wormer! :D

They will give miles out to people who actually do the game of getting onto one of their planes. It's kinda not about the money. After all, one day you may pay $500 for the flight that earns you 5,000 miles and on another day, you may pay $150 for the same 5,000 mile flight. As well, your company could foot the bill, put you in first class and give you status too, and you STILL get those miles (maybe double if they do that and you get status, etc)

So it's not the MONEY you are spending with the airlines that gives you miles, it's the actual FLYING that you must in fact do within this particular game! It's just one of the basic rules of said game. Probably so understood it's not even mentioned anywhere, but then again, seeing as how it is an airline, I wouldnt be surprised if it is! ("Unless designated by promotion or other activity, a person must fly to get miles" is probably written somewhere on your ticket or some documentation relating to travel)

Now, none of this really explains how a credit card or a shopping portal can get away with it and give you miles for no flights actually taken, but they have designed and built a possibly profitable and ongoing relationship with the airline and so that's probably why they do it for them and their activity. If you do that successfully, they may allow you to get miles without flying too, but I would imagine you'd have to drum up a TON of big business for them on an ongoing basis before they'd even consider it. You are not Target or Best Buy and you are not Citicard or Chase. Your $200 ticket thusly does nothing for them except on a one time basis. Hey, I think it is, but I am not the airline. And yeah, sure, if you do not fly, they can re sell it and maybe MAKE $200+ more on you, but that's still nothing compared to the residuals that are gained from the big name, big money partners found in the world of marketing partner portals and credit cards.

our activity is but a blip on the screen compared to those players. But to counter this, "citibank" itself cannot buy a seat and fly itself. It earns no miles. We get those when we SIT in the seat!

Besides, it wants you to go through the gauntlet/pain of having to eat their food and deal with all the other crap to get from A-B.

If you don't, you are 0. And we all know that 0 x $400,191,886,821.07 is STILL 0.

(well, wait, if you are going to give them THAT much money, maybe they'd make an exception -just this once, sir...)

;)MM

From a business and economic standpoint, this is one of the best treatises I've ever seen on why US airlines are in the current financial state they're in.

Nothing they do makes any sense, businesswise, logically, or in anything other than some abstruse argument for why inefficient behaviour should be rewarded whilst creative and profit-diven thinking is not.

:)