[QUOTE=Happy;7243059]What do you mean "I lawyered this myself"...


/QUOTE]

Well, I am a lawyer (though I don't normally work on anything like this sort of thing) and I did a little research and wrote a strong letter asserting several defenses and potential counterclaims and ultimately they dropped the claim. I am not suggesting that this would always work; I think it would depend largely on the particular facts.
If you'd like further information, PM me.

There is also the option of purchasing rental car coverage from a source other than the rental company. TravelGuard offers rental coverage for about $9US per day (with a $250US deductible).

More info is available here.

Agree, it doesn't make sense to pay for coverage on rental car.

How is this coverage different from the free CDW coverage provided by the credit cards? At a quick glance it doesn't appear to include any third-party liability coverage.

Not all credit cards provide coverage in all countries. I was merely trying to provide readers with another option for coverage.

no choice

OK, I should have known better. That said -- here is the story.

We booked a package with Hapuna Prince Hotel that included car. I was given a special code to use when I booked the car rental with Avis. The package provided at credit for a specific sum of money towards the car. If we choose an intermediate sized car, we would end up only owing taxes and fees; if we wanted to upgrade we could choose to do so and simply pay balance. I booked the reservation online at Avis.com and entered the code. I got a confirmation with TOTAL costs [rental, fees etc]. No credit card was required at the time of making reservation.

We declined CDW when we picked up our car in Kona in October. We gave them our Mastercard when we picked up the car. WE used our Mastercard to pay the fees when we turned in the car.

In between picking up the car and returning it, we had a close encounter with what I believe is called a "lava toe" at VNP. DH was backing up to exit parking space at end of Chain of Craters road and scrapped the bumper.

When we got back to the Prince, we went to the Avis desk there and reported the damage and filled out a report.

When we turned in the car at Kona airport, we gave a copy of the report to Avis checkin person.

We were under the belief that Mastercard would pay for this damage under their MasterRental insurance program.

I submitted all the required paperwork and have now been notified by Mastercard that they are declining payment because we did not "use the card to initiate and pay for the entire rental agreement/contract {tax, gas, and airport fees are not considered rental charges] with your mastercard."

I have been protesting this denial for over 4 months now -- I keep sending MC more documents to show that I did use the card to reserve, and pay for car as part of the package, but I am sure I won't get anywhere. I even submitted paperwork from Hapuna Prince Hotel showing that the invoice to AVIS was paid [as MC requested} and the exact daily rate that we were paying.

So -- the lesson to be learned here -- if you get a car as part of a package deal, it appears your credit card will not cover damages should you decline CDW.

There are lots of other conditions that invalidate the insurance [like having car for more than 15 consecutive days; rental vehicles must have msrp of $50,000 or less etc etc.]Better check these out before you falsely believe that your credit card will protect you.

I know that I can report this to my car insurance [USAA] BUT we have a $500 deductible on our cars for collision and I really hate to report anything to them...for fear of them hiking our premiums. I just talked to them and they said that the rental is treated just like your personal car, so deductibles are same.

The scrapes were not all that bad, but by the time they included loss of use, administrative fees it totaled almost $700. I don't think it is worth having insurance pay the $200 above deductible and risk raising rates. This amount includes admin costs and loss of use costs.

I am thinking of following this line of reasoning with Mastercard. We did in fact use the same mastercard to pay for the package at the Hapuna Prince and will pursue that as argument that I did in fact use my card to pay for everything. I should have known that "free" benefits/coverage is "you get what you pay for" and that they will do everything possible not to pay out, but I will try to reason with them.

It appears that MC is doing everything NOT to pay; to deny and drag this out hoping I will just pay AVIS. I recently got a letter from AVIS saying that we owe this money as credit card company hasn't paid. To AVIS' credit, this is only the second bill from them; the first being the original one.

And as far as using MC when making car rental reservation [which is one of the requirements for their covering claim; as it was stated above... you do not need a card to make a reservation so that seems like it would be an automatic out for the CC company.

My interpretation of "initiate" would be that you must use the Mastercard at time of reservation or present the Mastercard at the time you picked up the car (or both). I believe they are trying to guard against the situation where someone might use one card at the begining of the rental, then switch to the one with better coverage after the damage has occurred.

By my understanding you complied with this requirement, the issue is really that you did not directly pay for the rental with the card because it was included in the hotel package.

Does your card offer primary coverage?

I don't know the details of your situation, but, years ago, someone I knew rented a car on a card without collision insurance included, then had a bad accident. Returned the car and paid with a card that had the insurance. Second card paid up with no problems. I suspect they just didn't notice.

If your car is not separately rented, MC or Visa wont cover it
 

Package deal, priceline bids (prepaid to Priceline, not to the rental car company), whatever, your credit card wont pick up the coverage - it is very clear in the T&C that you MUST rent the car and pay the ENTIRETY of the rental cost to rental car company with your CC (versus only the fee and taxes), otherwise you lose out on the coverage. The fine print is very clear in this regard. In your case, you paid Prince hotel for the cost of rental car as part of the package - then the balance of fee and extra you paid with your CC - that is NOT the entirety you paid for your rental car to the rental car company directly.

Your back and forth with MC will not go anywhere - simply waste your time.

Besides, what are you thinking? MC in this case is the SECONDARY coverage - they wont pay the full amount, they only pay what is left unpaid by your insurance company if you have comprehensive coverage. Obviously you do. I dont know if you need to file with your own insurance company first or not, I do know you need to submit your own car policy declaration page to MC as part of the paperworks required. MC paid the hailstorm damage on our rental for the full repair estimate of $2282 because our own car policy was liability only. So MC became primary. The loss of usage is very difficult to get approval eventhough MC said it covers it. It requires the Fleet Log and is subj to magnified glass examination. MC does NOT cover Admin charge. Visa does.

OT: Paid the entirety with the card is extreme important in any benefits provided by CC - in the case of purchase protection or extended warranty - dont ever pay a portion of it by giftcard or coupon for an expensive item that you want coverage - store discount is ok but using coupon or giftcard to reduce the purchase cost is NOT.

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry7130e/4.1.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/104)

As of a couple of years ago, some credit card companies were representing that they would cover Priceline rentals. If anyone is interested in exploring this, I would recommend asking the credit card company for a letter or Email, as opposed to an oral, response.

As far as charging the entire rental to a credit card, MasterCard specifically allows one to take advantage of a rental company discount or promotion (coupon) as long as at least one full day of the rental is charged to the card.

I doubt that a credit card company would exclude coverage based on a reservation that did not include a credit card. Both Visa and MasterCard talk about initiating a rental "transaction" or "agreement/contract." I don't think that a reservation counts, especially since one can sometimes rent a car by walking up to a rental counter without a reservation. (A prepaid/non-refundable reservation might be a different story.)

interesting, i didn't realize that i might not be covered through a priceline.com purchase...

It is my contention that since I DID use the MC to reserve the entire package, which included the car rental as well as room AND I used the MC to pay the final hotel bill and all charges with rental car that the MC was used for every aspect of this car rental transaction.

I am pretty sure it won't get me anywhere, but I figure some letters, phones etc might be worth the effort if I get any money from MC.

I just wanted people to be aware of this "out" that MC seems to have. Especially troublesome is MC's contention that you must use MC to reserve the car when NO CARD IS REQUIRED to reserve a car.

Debi

Nothing in your posts (so far) indicates that MasterCard is requiring that one use the card to reserve the rental car (especially if the car-rental company does not even take credit-card information when a reservation is made).

You might want to ask MasterCard whether they extend the loss/collision coverage to car rentals obtained through Priceline or Hotwire, if a MasterCard is used. If their answer is yes, then I would ask them how your situation is different. I believe that the car-rental companies treat Priceline/Hotwire reservations as prepaids, and, in any event, the customer is making a credit-card payment directly to Priceline/Hotwire, and not to the car-rental company.

The denial letter from them said, " Your MasterCard was not used to reserve and pay for the entire cost of the rental."

It then goes on to say:

"To get coverage:
initiate and pay for the entire rental agreement/contract {tax, gas, and airport fees are not considered rental charges] with your mastercard."

There are many hidden noncoverd expenses that may arise on a rental car claim that will not be paid by your own personal insurance policy. One should give strong consideration to accepting the rental car insurance.
As indicated it is not easy to make and validate a claim.
William S Cook
Public Adjuster

I honestly believe, the word "reserve" is not that important here - the crux is, you do not pay the entire rental cost to the rental car company DIRECTLY with your MC, if I understand correctly.

As for discount and coupon promo with rental car company - it does not affect the coverage. In the case of our claim, there was a 20% discount code being used and MC did not blipped. In fact, once the paperwork was in place, the adjuster wanted to pay the repair estimate right away, before the rental car company submitted the Fleet Log for the Loss of Usage claim. I was naive enough to ask him to wait, and tried my best to get the Fleet Log. The Fleet Log was shot down for reason of "not enough detailed information". We ended up paying the combo of Loss of Usage and Admin Fee for a total of $320 after bargaining it down from $450 with rental car company's insurance agent (It was a Franchaisee and its insurance matter was handled by a 3rd party).

This is something I haven't tried yet but will do so! Thanks for the suggestion.
Debi

Dood to know- I never ran into this since my alternate is visa

I agree that the real issue is whether "you pay for the entire rental transaction with your eligible MasterCard card." See:

http://www.mastercard.com/us/persona...y/index.html#9

Of course those aren't the full disclosures, so who knows what the language is in the actual T&Cs. But I've always been under the impression that unless the charge on your card (for the full amount) comes directly from the rental agency or common carrier (airline, train company, etc.), your credit card CDW and travel/lost luggage/cancelation benefits do NOT apply. This is why I don't reserve cars with Priceline unless they're MUCH cheaper than renting directly from the rental agencies, and why I try to use vouchers I get all-at-once rather than spread out over various car rentals/tickets.

The primary car rental coverage is the main reason I renew my Diner's Club card every year. They were fantastic when someone tried to steal a car I had rented while mine was in the shop. Even more so because I was using a free weekend rental certificate for the car, but had also provided my DC when I rented the car. They handled everything once I notified them -- even Fedexed me a copy of the settlement check paid to National within 24 hours of receiving the final total for the damage (broken window and cracked steering column) from National.

For those that recommend using your own auto insurance coverage, you really need to check your coverage closely. Many personal policies no longer cover rentals made for business purposes, so if you're renting the car on a business trip, your claim would/could be denied.

Amex CC Coverage Q's
 

I have no personal auto insurance, but I rent with National quite frequently. I use my personal Amex Gold Rewards Plus card to rent, and I rent on a month-to-month basis. Am I covered for 30 day rentals? Also, I thought the card provided full coverage, but I read about the $15 or $25 additional coverage you can add from Amex. Where would I find info on that?
Thanks all.

IMHO, this no business rental coverage on your personal policy info is problematic. Perhaps an issue if you rent a car for business only for very long periods, but you should be covered on any reasonably short trip. Does anyone have some specifics on claims denied because of "business" use?

I wonder if this isn't a story first told by a car rental agent eagar to seel extra coverage?

RE; 30 day coverage w/ Amex Gold. you do get 30 day coverage. thanks for amaking me check, i always thought the max was @ 2weeks. check out the T&Cs at http://tinyurl.com/3cfsak

RE: Amex Premium Car Rental Coverage Product can found at http://tinyurl.com/38fl9x

i haven't signed up but think that the flat fee for length of rental period could be an attractive benefit

hth

Thanks for the help. I've taken the top coverage, for the $25, its a no-brainer for me.

Why would you pay "loss of use" damages if the rental company was unable to prove actual loss of use damages (to the satisfaction of the credit card adjuster, at least)?

Because this is a 3rd party handling the claim of the franchisee - they said they would turn this to collection agency - it is just not a big $ to mess with. I know I know, you can ignore the collection agency's harrassment, and can put notes on your credit report should they file something against you.... It is just too much hassle to deal with. Had it been a Corporate owned location, I would handle it differently. In our case, the Thrifty is a franchaisee in JAC - its insurance claim is handled by a company in Las Vegas. It could be the ownership of the franchaisee is actually some investors somewhere. Who knows.

As a matter of fact, MC actually lied to the rental car insurance agent that there never was a claim from us, claiming they did not find any records. We got a phone call from Thrifty insurance agent on the Friday evening, right before New Year Eve long weekend. She was trying to reach us in the previous 2 weeks, because she was unable to reach the MC adjuster. We went on a cruise until Dec 28, and she caught us at 6pm Eastern Time. Imagine my shock when I got the phone call at such timing. She was about to give up and turned the case over to collection, because MC kept telling her there was no claim filed. I gave her the claim number we were issued. Only with the claim number she was able to get hold of the adjuster.

Bottomline, with MC, dont expect they will do anything for you - if you haven't heard anything from either CC or rental car company, DONT assume things are hunky donky - call the rental car company to make sure the claim is being handled.

Besides, when we rented, the situation was, if you did not have reservation, you did not have a car if you were walk-in - accross all companies at JAC on the day we picked up our car. We do feel the loss of usage is a legitimate claim in our case - the car needed an extensive body job and would be out of commission for 3 to 4 days. The repair was extensive and MC agreed - otherwise they wouldn't pay the $2282 repair estimates without a blip.

Also, there were discussions in the various rental car forums, especially the Avis forum where there was ex Avis manager participation, that the Loss of Usage coverage while was there on the benefits, he NEVER saw CC paid that. The crus is, the CC will never satisfy with the proof, judging by the fact the adjuster did not even want to bother with the fleet log, and wanted to simply pay the repair estimates and be done with it.

I think all business cards are better in coverage, at least it claim to be so.

Lots of useful info in this thread. A couple of questions:

- What's the point of secondary coverage? If I have a claim and need to report to my auto insurance company (and am willing to live with deductible / premium increase), then is there any reason/benefit to also reporting through my credit card?

- Like the last poster, I had also heard that business credit cards may have primary coverage for rentals for business purposes. Is this myth?

On the loss of use point, one should always ask the agency to provide documentation that their entire fleet was indeed sold out for the days when your vehicle couldn't be used. This is usually done by insurance co's etc.

I'll chime in cuz this may be right...

-secondary coverage? to be redundant, and also to cover any minutia that you could miss. As well, I'd rather be double covered in case (A) there's some dispute --meaning, the CC and the INS co can argue it out, and maybe leave me further out of it, but still get coverage. (B) because you may even get double monetary returns, legitimately. Think of it like scholarships. Apply to more, get more!

That's all I got though... just educated guesses.
:)MM

1) The secondary coverage pays for your deductible, unless your deductible is very low and you couldn't care less. Most people have 250 to 500 deductible - with the 250 deductible, a claim usually jacks up your premium by sizable %. That is why some here opt for the Diner card or buy the coverage from AMEX if you have AMEX Gold reward card.

2) It does not need to be entire fleet sold out - because a rental car company would not give a, say, a compact car to a renter who wants a full size, - they usually go by % of usage, ranging from certain % to certain % - it seems to be a highly-guarded secret, and for good reason.

Suggest you do a search on the various rental car forums on FT, esp the one frequently received input from an Avis manager, you would understand there is a big gap between practice and theory. Good luck for your need to get that if you are unlucky to need to go thru that in the future. Be sure to post back your experience so we can learn.

You do not get double cover because one is primary the other is secondary. The secondary pays what the primary does not pay but considered covered items.

You will not get double payments. If you happen to - it is better to report and return it, as this constitutes Insurance Fraud and is a criminal offence (not civil). Look at the T&Cs before you make such statement.

This is fundamentally different from trying to get more sign up bonuses from CC, for example.

what is the main difference between the $19.95 and the $25 coverage with AMEX car rental insurance?

um...
$5.05?

I soo had to. Sorry!
:D

OK, great discussion here and I've learned a lot. Let me get down to the nuts and bolts of a specific case and see if you have any suggestions. I willl be renting a car in Italy this summer. My AMEX won't cover it because Italy is one of their excluded countries. I have both MC and Visa cards which I could use to charge the rental from reservation through final payment. (See, I told you I learned something.) My regular insurance with Hartford/AAA does not apply in Italy. What would you do to ensure adequate (I know - varies in definition) coverage on a compact, not very expensive rental for 3 or 4 days? Is there a better rental car company to use in Italy (Rome and/or Naples) that provides good insurance at a more reasonable rate than other companies? Anyone with personal experience on a great deal combining reasonable rates on both car and insurance? Any relevant suggestions would be appreciated.

are you sure MC covers Italy? As far as I know, MC and AMEX have virtually identical exclusion. Visa Signature does cover Italy, and New Zealand + Australia as a secondary, but the wording is so vague and the New Zealand regulation is so ridiculous, I think most everyone would buy the insurance whick is called excess (deductible) waiver.

You want to call Visa to find out whether the coverage at Italy is primary or secondary though.

my approach would be to check rate on every major and see how much incl insurance would cost - you would be surprised to find there may be a wide range. you simply have to do your own legwork to find out.

Hint: check out the rental car forums to find discount codes and test them one by one.

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry7130e/4.1.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/104)

According to my Visa Signature guide to benefits, dated January 1, 2006, car rentals in Italy ARE covered. (That is, Italy is not listed as an excluded country.) But I'd suggest you call the Visa benefits line at 800-356-8955 to confirm that things have not changed. Also, the credit card does not provide third-party liability coverage, so you might want to purchase that from the rental company, if it is available in Italy.

I had amex cover the deductible on my insurance sine the claim amount was less than $500.00 (my deductible) Didn't have to report it to my insurance company.

I just checked some Card Agreements:

-Chase Visa Signature covers Italy.
-Citi Mastercard - I could not find Card Agreements reg. car rentals in my file, never got them,
-American Express Gold and Starwood (both private and business cards). I could not find that any countries are excluded(!?!). However, I know for sure, that I have read some years ago that some countries, like Italy are excluded.
Am I blind? Can somebody point to the paragraph please.

BTW, regarding primary/secondary, Chase Visa is pretty clear: PRIMARY for USA, SECONDARY for abroad.

I am afraid you either read it too fast, or you are "blind".

I think you read it backward regarding Chase Visa Signature. BTW, whether it is Chase Visa Signature, or Chase regular Visa, or Visa in general, if it provides rental car insurance at all, it is governed by the same rules you can find it on Visa.com. Someone has posted it already.

Read again, under How does this benefit apply?

It is very clearly stated

outside your country of residence or if you do not have automobile insurance, this benefit is primary in those countries where it is available, and in that case, you do not have to claim payment from any other source of insurance before receiving the benefits.

The paragraph before it related to "Within your country of residence" - which is again clearly stated how it work - it is a secondary AFTER your primary insurance - be it your own policy or your employer's policy. AFTER you claim the benefit with your own insurance first, then Visa benefit would pay what the primary does not pay for items considered covered - generally it is the deductible. It will, however, become Primary if you dont have any comprehensive insurance, only liability insurance on your car, or you dont have car insurance at all.

Read your SPG AMEX agreement again under Description of Coverage, at the end of the paragraph.

*Other than those located in Australia, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Jamaica, and New Zealand".

Read your MC paperwork again. They exclude the same countries as AMEX does.

I cannot imagine how you can miss so much important information on each of the agreements. It probably is better for you to simply buy the insurance from rental car company, as you obviously do not seem to have a grasp on the concept, and able to navigate the fine prints of the documents. You would have a hard time tackle the red tape should you really need to invoke the benefits.

Italy is NOT covered by AMEX, nor MC.