tixx

i knew this was going to be a good topic!!

tixx

ebay makes a brokerage % of the sale , plus listing fees , i see them more involded in the transaction then just a newspaper listing

marshmellowman

I've personally have had a lot of good experiences buying and selling airline awards. I was about to buy $2000 COACH last minute ticket from LAX->BOS and then found out that I could buy an award ticket from www.cheapestfirstclass.com for $950 (taxes/security fee included) in F-Class!!!

Why in the world would I pay 2x more to sit in coach? Next time I have an expiring certificate, I'm going to sell it to these guys. I mean why lose money? Ever since AA stopped redepositing certificates, I've been pulling my hair out when I knew I didn't have a trip coming up...

Worldtraveler36

>>> sssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
(quiet ) enjoy it, but do it quietly-
there are ears and eyes everywhere...

OzFlyer

The difference here is that one is an illegal criminal offence and one is a breech of contract. The criminal courts will not see a difference BUT civil courts may make the difference.

American Airlines can cancel your account for "breech of the terms of the program". BUT you COULD argue you did not breech the program rules as you gave away the miles. In a criminal case, you would lose (due to the wording of the statues) but in a civil case (in some jurisdictions) you may get away it.

Any court would understand that when you give away a mileage award ticket, there is always some consideration to the transaction. For example I give away a lot of flights (as I earn millions of point a year - credit card spending). Now if I give a first class flight to a cousin of mine worth say $10,000, I can almost be assured of (but not expect) a great birthday or thank you present (worth maybe $2000). Now am I selling the miles? The distinction is academic.

An important thing to note however is that while the airlines have to be seen to not promoting the sale of points they are quite happy to see it go on in some cases.
The airlines value points internally and only offer seats on flights that they believe are profitable.

For example, if a credit card company (or any other company) pays an airline 1c per mile and the airline charges 20,000 points for a LAX - LAS reward seat. The airline will only release that seat to an award booking IF the expected revenue from that seat is less than $200. Now I just purchased a return LAX - LAS flight on United for $120.00, you will find that it is actually more profitable for the airline to release this seat to a FF than to sell it for revenue. At the end of the day, the airlines are trying to maximize the $ they can get from customers and therefore a customer using 180,000 miles (which internally is actually worth $1800 to the airline) for a First Class SYD - LAX flight (on a flight where they can say with 95% level of confidence that they will not sell the seat) is better for them then getting $800 in revenue for an economy seat on the same flight and awarding 15,000 miles (at an internal cost of $150).

As a result they don’t mind leisure travellers who would otherwise travel in economy using the points of others (even if they pay for them) as they can actually increase revenue from this activity BUT what they do mind is if a person who would pay $10,000 for a First Class seat SYD - LAX buys the miles from someone. Thus if they try to "outlaw" the process they can then turn a blind eye to the people selling tickets to "normally economy flyers" while discouraging the "normally first class" flyers from responding to ads in newspapers offering First Class for half price.

Airlines are starting to think like this and as note that people will pay “agents” 2.5c per mile, while the airline only values the miles @ 1c. Thus again in order to maximise revenue the airlines started selling points to the public at 2.5c each! Externally this seems quite hypocritical but it is all about maximising the revenue for the airline.

It all makes sense once you stop looking at points as a liability and start looking at them as a revenue source. Another tangent is with the bonus miles offered for flying. Currently if an airlines loads drop on a segment that normally costs $1000, they can offer the seats for $800 to increase loads OR they can offer 20,000 bonus miles, which is effectively like giving you a $200 voucher to use on future airline travel. If they offer the miles, they are assured at least that the $200 in future revenue will come to them and as an added bonus the consumer will value the 20,000 at the retail price of 2.5c per mile ($500) so that the promotion will have the effect of dropping the price to $500 (ie the competition will need to decrease prices to $500 in order to get the business). At the end of the day, airlines are smart and they know what they are doing.

JoeDoakes

I agree I read the rules of the frequent flyer program when I signed up and that I should not sell these miles.

I disagree in the case of bump vouchers (or other vouchers given as a customer service gesture), because they are direct and negotiated compensation and they don't tell you that you cannot sell them, at the time they offer them. Yes, it is printed on the back of the voucher in suitably tiny print, but by then you are already off the plane.

Just my opinion.

Doakes

OzFlyer

I guess most people would also say that "at the time of signing up" they did not know, be told or even think to ask if FF miles were able to be sold. Also now that you "know" that coupons cant be sold does the same point hold for the second and subsequent vouchers you get?

onedog

I guess this guy is still able to sell plain white envelopes on ebay?

500,000 miles for sale!

I especially like the part "I have created a way that generates miles for very little cost, so if you are interested I am also looking for a partner in this regards." Gotta kind of wonder? Now, I would think that the folks here on FT would have figured out every way possible to earn miles. Sometimes you have to remember the old saying, "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is."


[This message has been edited by onedog (edited 03-28-2002).]

Tango

So how many people read all of those pages of legal stuff when you sign to buy your home, or the flyers your credit card companies send you from time to time? and how many of you really understand what it is trying to tell you?

Doppy

So is that supposed to be some kind of defense? I didn't read the rules, so I didn't know I wasn't allowed to sell the miles?

Sorry, ignorance isn't a valid defense. If it were, there would be quite a premium on ignoring details, because it would get you out of a lot of hassles.

Anyway, as far as certificates go, they usually have very few restrictions, other than not being sellable.

d

Beckles

How many folks do you suppose had activity on 2/6/02, had a balnce of exactly 947,311 on 3/18/02 with 1,532,392 lifetime miles and 42 upgrades on that date and have flown 12 segments and 38,438 YTD as of 3/18/02?

Dumb dumb dumb ... that guy is so busted.

QuietLion

Ignorance may not be a defnse in a criminal matter; however, in a contract a meeting of minds is required for enforcement. Especially in a contract of adhesion such as those governing airline programs, ignorance, vaguenss, and ambiguity all enter into it.

I wouldn't risk my relationship with most airlines by flouting their rules so egregiously, but I think it reflects poorly on their customer realtionships that they see the need to police people so harshly.

Steve M

I'm not quite sure what your point is. I know you're responding to an earlier post, but it's almost as if you're saying that a person couldn't be held to suffer the consequences in the contract unless they were aware of them and purposefully violated the terms.

But, isn't the fact that the person isn't saying that they're selling the miles themselves, but is using a charade of selling a plain white envelope for several thousand dollars will free miles enclosed a very clear indication that they know that selling the miles themselves is prohibited, and is in actuality knowingly violating the terms?

JoeDoakes

I dunno. Maybe not. But I still think there is a difference between miles and vouchers, since vouchers are a more cash-like item. If people could sell miles, it would make it into less of an individual program; people could "top off" the amount of miles they needed for a flight (I know you can do this by purchasing the miles from the carrier but there's minimums and round numbers and all of that) and other things which would dilute the loyalty aspect of the program. I don't see that being the case with vouchers.

Just my opinion.

Tango

Please reread my previous post, there is a difference between selling miles and being able to pool miles. If you sell 90,000 miles to someone else as an award ticket, you could argue that this is not costing the airline since those 90,000 miles are going to be used one way or another.

The airlines do not allow you to pool miles. This keeps people from selling miles (unless they sell it to you) so you can top off your account. If they allowed this, the consequences would be extreme since every single mile they issue would be used up.