I am going to agree with the original poster.
If you see someone in a wheelchair with a stack of $50 bills and you grab one and run, and no one will ever catch you, you are still a thief. Regardless of whether they had plenty more money or not.

Cutting in line is harmless, unless there are 10,000 free give-aways and the person who cuts makes you number 10,001.

I remember in college all the cool credit card numbers posted on the wall of the phone booth. I also remember we wanted to burn the university down when they took away the phone booths and we all had to walk two blocks to make calls outdoors.

Think of the riots in the 60's. Those communities sure showed the store owners who was boss. Of course 40 years later you can still see the rows of empty stores as you drive 7 miles to the supermarket.

All that has happened is that we are experiencing theft that doesn't exactly affect us at this moment. It's sorta the American way. (Greenies - here's your opening)

In our own world, I flew JFK to LAX and the guy next to me had 3 bistro bags. There's never enough food in these crappy little bags, he explained. No big deal, until they ran out of food. Harmless pilfering though.

There seems to be this new fascination with the line between right and wrong versus legal and illegal.

If I claim FF miles for myself and someone else with a name similar to mine, you might make the argument it isn't illegal, and you might find enough words to convince me, but you'll never find enough words to convince me it isn't wrong.

One other poster responded that we were "forced into this" by the evil actions of the companies involved. I thought that was why America suffered its worst attack in history? Someone was entitled to do it due our bad behavior. So please don't use this excuse.

We also had a thread a few weeks ago with women high fiving each other for taking over men's bathrooms cuz they felt entitled. Of course I learned alot from that episode and now park in handicapped parking whenever I want. There'll always be another space for those people.....

So please, at least have the dignity to be embarrased by your actions. Fifty people telling you that you are not a thief doesn't change reality, just your perception of it.

DHacker: I got to hand it to you, that was pretty nifty research. But if you read United's Rule 8, I did not violate the rules.

Maybe people misunderstood my initial point. I am all for "bending" the programs within their rules. As I see it, a mileage run is bending the rules. The airlines didn't necessarily count on people doing it, but it is not really violating the letter or the spirit of the rules. But when people specifically try to get miles assigned to someone other than who flew those miles, that's a pretty clear violation. What I'm talking about is people who say, "I know I'm violating the rules, but do people see anything wrong with it."

And I understand peoples' frustration with flying these days (although I don't really know the specifics of the Continental complaints). But just because the airlines treat you badly, that doesn't justify you breaking the rules. After all, if they break the rules, they get sued or have to give you vouchers or put you on another flight or put you up in a hotel, and so on and so on. And trust me, they get sued all the time. So when they violate the rules, they do have to pay up. When you violate the rules, most times you don't get caught.

And as for DHacker's point, I'm not perfect. I've tried not to break the rules. As many of us know, the more we learn about the programs, the more the loopholes become apparent. I admit, I came up with a pretty good bumping scheme. (I won't reveal it). I even tried it. It didn't work. But I didn't feel right doing it and I told myself I wouldn't try it again. And I haven't. I'm not perfect. But I think we can make this board better if we focus on exploiting the full value of the programs within their rules, not ways to violate those rules and not get caught.

Yes, it does get gray often. That's why we have each other. So when someone says, should I go ahead with a plan that is a clear violation of the rules, I think we, as a community, should help that person say no.

I support you on this one Premex2000, but I have seen that this is a tough issue to sell.
The world is full or empty of cheats, depending how skummy the person you ask. People who cheat are seldom bothered by their impacting of others as their basis of life is selfcentered.

People who say they know it is wrong, but are suffering from low morals and no balls so they seek the approval of others for their wrong doing.

Responders that support wrong doing usually are:
It is ok, everyone does it
It is ok, I do it
It is ok, it isn't murder
It is ok, they cheat me too (in my sick opinion)
It is ok, what is the big deal
It is good, the more you cheat others the more you have, tough for them, they should start cheating too.
Oh, it must be ok, you do it

Note these people are helping themself, not others. The will pay, there is a judgement day

Let me start off by agreeing with most of your latest post, and I am far from perfect myself (However, I disagree strongly with the original narc idea).

You really set yourself up for that one http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

I'm not too familiar with UA, so checked the rules on the Web site and expected to find support for your innocence. Unfortunately, I read Rule 8 and don't see it exactly the same way:

Prohibition of sale or barter

8. The sale or barter of any such mileage, certificates, awards or benefits other than by United is expressly prohibited. Any mileage, certificates, awards or benefits transferred, assigned or sold in violation of the Program Rules, in addition to exposing the member to the penalties otherwise associated with violations, may be confiscated or cancelled. The use of award tickets that have been acquired by purchase, barter, or other conduct in violation of Program Rules may result in the confiscation of the tickets, denial of boarding with respect to the ticket holder, and, at United's discretion, completion of the travel only upon payment of an applicable fare.

Gee, now I'm acting like the mileage police http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif

FWIW, I truly believe that we each have to decide for ourselves! Usually it is clear to most, if not all, but there are surely many grey areas, particularly where miles and points are concerned, IMHO! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I'm not sure how I would PROVE cause and effect on this one, but once upon a time in the 1960's there used to be student standby fares that were approxmately 1/2 of normal coach fares. It was a good deal for everyone as long as everyone played by the rules (remember this was back in the days of airline regulation when capacity controls on fare classes had yet to be invented). Students discovered that they could usually get on flights that would normally have been sold out by calling and reserving a few seats in ficticious names. When these ficticious people no-showed at the airport, the student on his standby ticket got on the plane. Not only was this student standby fare phased out (and at the time the airlines pointed to this abuse as the reason the fares were disontinued), but it lead indirectly (along with the development of yield management and inventory management software) to the non-refundable and only partially refundable advance purchase tickets of today.

Bumping scheme????

Fill me in....

Yeah, I know, this is changing the topic. It is however, an well represented perspective from most people in this forum. I hear the infamous words of Newman from Seinfeld "Information is Power." http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif

Excuse me?!?! You're equating boarding in the wrong group with mass murder???? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

Here's one for you: Some airlines charge for carrying scuba gear, no matter if it's a single small item, or if it in no way exceeds the checked baggage allowances for weight or space. Golf clubs and bags are exempt from baggage restrictions, despite the weight and oversize shape.

Let's say you're carrying a small dive computer, equivalent to a watch, and nothing else besides your clothes. Would you "declare" the watch and pay $75.00 each way to transport it? Or would it be a matter of "don't ask, don't tell"?

[This message has been edited by taucher (edited 02-13-2002).]

I view flyertalk as a club where we share information. If there is a loophole and we share it with other crazy people who like to fly and stay in hotels, what wrong with that. A millage run fills up empty seats and that money go 100% to profit, because we would not be on that plane except for the millage. Cheating is cheating and than in the long run we will all lose.

Doc wrote:
I don't understand this post. If it is usually "clear to most, if not all", then what are the grey areas? What does it mean to say that "we each have to decide for ourselves"? What do the terms and conditions in your membership agreement with your affinity program state in black and white, not grey?

Let's see. A red light while driving is usually clear to most, if not all (we can only hope), as a sign to stop. We proceed on a green light or only when it is safe to do so (broken stop light, for example). Yellow is a different story and reactions may vary according to country and culture, but we're still not talking grey here. The point is that red clearly means stop. Thankfully we don't just "decide for ourselves" that the red might be meant for other drivers, but not ourselves, depending on the circumstances or if we decide to interpret red as grey.

While I agree with the original poster I only hope that the level of rightous indignation that some people on this board display is a mere shadow of their efforts in areas of their civic life (assuming they have one) that really count.

I see I have a reputation around here http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif !

I appreciate premex2000's comment and many of the responses.

DHacker makes a good point regarding where to draw the line and I think different people will of course draw the line in different places. There are important distinctions, however. For example, some ideas are fraud or plain stealing, while others are, in my mind, overworking a legally legitimate 'loophole' that will dilute benefits and/or cause program changes.

The former I abhor unconditionally.

The latter I fear, when combined with the power of the internet to spread information, will cause great harm because there are people who come to FT and take whatever ideas are tossed about here and carry them to extremes (I consider millions of Goldpoints for buying thousands of magazines extreme and harmful but not illegal).

Therein lies the rub. FT is about sharing ideas for maximizing participation. We all want to do well with the programs. However, without some form of self limitation, at least by most, I believe the programs will be damaged.

Then of course there is the issue of fairness, one that is by definition personal. I find some of the technically legal 'attacks' on promotions and programs unfair. They don't pass my 'pillow test' that is, when I lay my head down on the pillow at the end of the day will I rest easy knowing what I did was fair.

On top of this, I am dismayed by the arrogant and grasping nature of some participants... they hack off a huge chunk of flesh, and before things even have time to run their course they're howling bloody murder about how poorly they are being treated, faxing CEOs, and so on. That is ungracious in the extreme. It's a total laugh these people consider themselves good customers... they only came calling because they knew they could screw the business they were dealing with, then they want to be thanked for it!

Taken as a whole I believe the dynamic is one that threatens to the reasonable and fair person, the person who is a customer for more than simply to gouge out some points.

It has been heartening of late to see some of the more ridiculous and purely fraudulent schemes shouted down (and without my help!)

The larger challenge/issue is whether as community, in overall balance, we interact fairly with the businesses that offer us perks for our business so that we both can prosper.

---

Yes, indeed, as you well note, the fact that "red means stop" means this is a bona fide non-issue!

How could it be grey when after all, it's RED! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Perhaps I am missing your point? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

If it is unlawful, it is wrong - and that is, of course, quite simple!

One recent example, (and the fact that I said that each individual should decide for themself strongly denotes that I prefer to not tell others what to do), of a personal grey area, is the "W" Times Square. It is not illegal, nor is it manifestly wrong, per se, to take advantage of an anomaly in pricing! After all economics is somewhat of an imprecise science, IMHO! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Yet I choose to NOT book it, since it personally did not seem to be, (to "feel") the right thing to do. Others did, however, (many in fact) and I most certainly respect their alternate views and actions. Admittedly, I live nearby, know some folks who work there and the added presence of the Starwood lurker, William, probably all played into the mix - and very much not to my credit personally, I found it personally embarassing. SPG has been good to me, and I truly appreciate it, and so I did not want to take advantage. Yet others are free to think, feel, do, whatever, as they may wish, IMHO.

Back and white is easy. Illegal is so simple. It's the "grey" areas that arise where we all need to perhaps give it some thought and at least marginally concern ourselves for the best interests of all - in my opinion.

Hope this clarifies my view for you! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Go, wormwood, go! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif