Response from Dollar about fingerprinting
 

To their credit, Dollar responded to my letter in less than a week. To their detriment, it obviously is a form letter. Posted in its entirety:
(only my name changed)

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Dear Mr. Duxfan,

I am responding to your letter to Mr. Jim Senese, Vice President of Quality Assurance, objecting to Dollar's trial practice of requiring the thumbprints of customers as part of the rental process. Dollar has begun this procedure on a trial basis to help reduce the loss of its vehicle inventory due to theft and fraud. Ultimately, Dollar hopes this practice will significantly reduce its costs of doing business and result in lower prices for its customers. Other businesses use the same procedure for similar reasons with documented success.

With regard for any concern for privacy, Dollar shares a thumbprint with law enforcement agencies only in event of a fraudulent rental or theft of a vehicle. After the rental, the thumbprint is stored with other rental information, such as credit card information, for seven years and then destroyed. While stored the information is treated as confidential and is not shared with anyone.

I hope this letter addresses your concerns and you will consider becoming a Dollar customer again in the future.

Sincerely,

Shannon Beasley
Dollar Customer Center, Executive Desk

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I still object to a private company retaining my fingerprint for 7 years! I asked that Dollar delete my FastLane account, but apparently that will remain for 7 years as well.

Sorry Dollar, that dog just won't hunt! I guess instead of Dollar, I'll have to go for "Change"....

I still have the same response to Dollar which is a raised middle finger

I am a big believer in individual privacy, regarldless of "good intentions".

However, I feel that we are headed down an inevitable path. Soon I believe quite a bit of our daily lives are going to require a fingerprint or some other biometric ID. Soon, all credit cards will use them, probably similar stuff for ailine check ins, etc. I'd imagine that at some point, a biometric id will be added to one's credit file and thus will be included in just about everything anyone does.
Fraud is starting to effect quite a few industries including credit and insurance. To keep these things affordable, what else can they do?

I'm quite concerned about identity theft believe that it is FAR too easy of a crime to commit. We have to do something, but like you, I am nauseated at the idea of registering my fingerprint to conduct simple transactions.

IDEA-Credit Card company's should do more to verify a persons ID before issuing cards. Merchants should CHECK THE SIGNATURE at the time of transaction. This should be enough to show a merchant that you are who you say you are. The credit card should establish your "credit". THat's what it's for. However, they way they freely hand them out without verifying identity has led to problems.

(edited for stupid mistakes)

[This message has been edited by pointman (edited 12-17-2001).]

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what else can they do? they can stop making it so darn easy for anyone to get credit, for starters. the credit industry is hooked on loading consumers up with debt. for pete's sake the average american household has $8000 of revolving debt! why, because credit companies won't survive on paying customers. yet paying customers like myself are the exact ones who pay for the less credit worthy customers.

as for checking signatures, good luck. my CO chase visa has "Ask for ID" written in the signature box. Yet I don't get asked for it more than half the time. heck, the US post office told me that they wouldn't accept the card because of it, even tho i had my ID! the merchant bears no responsibility for verifing customer identity. instead of weeding out the bad customer, they want to punish the good customer.

i'm the traveller who flys 80000 miles a year, yet i'm the one getting my bags rifled thru. i'm not the one stealing rental cars, yet i have to leave a thumbprint. i pay off my credit card every month, yet i can't get any service when i need it. anybody outside of las vegas thinks i'm a drug dealer when i pay cash for anything over $20, it seems.

and now you are saying that i should expect and accept having to leave a DNA sample for even the simplest transactions? if leaving a thumbprint with a private company in order to rent a car isn't enough to make you draw a line in the sand, just what is?

Actually the Post Office is right. You are supposed to sign your card and then they are supposed to verify the signature. Check ID is not a valid signature. If there is not signature the merchant is supposed to ask for id and request you sign the card after verifying the signature. They are not supposed to ask for ID if the card is signed. If I am required to use a fingerprint or other biometric device to get my money then I will revert back to all cash.


[This message has been edited by SuperCat (edited 12-17-2001).]

Duxfan-
It sounds as if I may have been misunderstood. I was agreeing with you. My point was that if the card companies had tighter controls and the merchants simply LOOKED at the signatures, none of this stuff would be necessary. It was my observation that, like it or not, things are headed to less privacy and more "security" measures such as fingerprints.

Related Question if anyone knows the answer:

Can a merchant ask to see your driver license when you pay with a Credit Card, or does this violate the Merchant Agreement? I have been asked occasionally and find it very offensive for some reason. Like I said, I believe in privacy. Recently, I have been asked at Friday's resturant, Kay Jewlers, and now my local Blockbuster Video store has a sign stating they will now be checking ID's for all credit card transactions (although they have not yet asked me). An appliance store wanted my address and I just about went through the roof. What business is it of theirs? I would have walked out but my wife wanted the microwave so she made me cooperate. My understanding is that if they (the merchant) imprint the card, the sigs match and they receive an approval # from the card company, then the merchant will be paid, thus no risk to them. I laugh when they tell me, "It's for your protection." I tell them, "Ha, no it isn't! It's for yours and I'm offended that you are asking me for identity papers! I didn't drive here so why would I be carrying a driver license!"
Anyone know just exactly what they can demand when you want to pay via credit or charge card?...thanks

I'm a bad typist..

[This message has been edited by pointman (edited 12-17-2001).]

This varies, state to state. The credit card companies do not require other ID to be presented.

That 'hump' in the seat is not a patch in the upholstery.

It's an anal probe, designed to take yet another type of biometric reference.

pointman: good point!

From what I have been told (repeatedly), asking for ID violates the VISA and MASTERCARD Merchant Agreements, UNLESS the signatures clearly don't match. In the past, I have told numerous teenagers to shove it when asked for ID, telephone number, address, birth certificate, passport, etc., when using a credit card.

From what I understand, they can ask for ID, but they cannot write down any info from the ID on the credit card receipt.

duxfan -

If you present your credit card with a "ask for ID" note written on the signature line, I hope you also always present your ID at the same time.

Speed is the name of the game, and signing your credit card (like you're supposed to, per the cardmember agreement) and having the merchant check the signatures is the fastest way to go. There's nothing more annoying than waiting for someone to dig up ID when asked to use a credit card or (worse) check. Maybe I'm a little impatient, but in NYC, speed is the name of the game.

Besides, I think a signature is more secure anyway. Unless you're a forgery artist, it's tough to make your signature look like someone else's. ID on the other hand is really easy to come by. Just look at the thousands of kids who buy alcohol or get into clubs every night with fake IDs.

d

1. How hard is it to make photocards? Citibank used to have this and apparently, the fraud reduced significantly.

2. Yeah, try Radioshack. They want my address and phone number for a $5 Engergizer purchase. I refused and they said it's for warranty purpose.... Warranty for what, disposable battery? These store clerks have no brain, they don't even have a common sense any more.

Just as a follow up point to my previous post:
None of the merchants that asked for my ID ever did look at the signature on my sales slip and compare it to the card, as they are supposed to do. In fact, the request for ID was before I even signed anything. It was basically just SOP.

Even if everyone thought this fingerprinting to be a swell idea, do we really believe that rates will go DOWN???

ROFLMAO !!!

We're in NY - and yes, our merchant agreements prohibit us from asking the customer for anything except their signature for transactions with card present.

We are required to match the sigs - and if they match (or if they are so close that a regular person couldn't tell), we are protected from chargebacks.

Most people don't realize that EXECPT for in-person, card present transactions, MERCHANTS are the ones ultimately responsible for making good on fraud. Not the banks... Internet/Mail/Phone order credit card fraud is huge - and it's the merchants that are paying the price.

If you encounter gun-shy merchants, it's because we're being burned every day.

I will never ask a cusotmer for ID (I can't) - but if the customer calls and asks me to ship the merch, i'll do an address verification - and only ship to either the billing address, or an approved ship-to address that the customer has established with their credit card. If we have proof of delivery to the customer's address, it's unlikely to be fraud. This is why were are a little hesitant to ship out of the country to customers not known to us, since we can't track it as well (and AVS is next to impossible in many countries).

I have numerous addresses on file with AMEX and my major credit cards, so that I can do ship-to transactions while on the road. This is not an invasion of my privacy, rather a preventative measure to simplify my life. Trust me, chasing this stuff down is a PITA.

But we're off track here... just wanted to clarify this point.

cpd

We're in NY - and yes, our merchant agreements prohibit us from asking the customer for anything except their signature for transactions with card present.

We are required to match the sigs - and if they match (or if they are so close that a regular person couldn't tell), we are protected from chargebacks.

Most people don't realize that EXECPT for in-person, card present transactions, MERCHANTS are the ones ultimately responsible for making good on fraud. Not the banks... Internet/Mail/Phone order credit card fraud is huge - and it's the merchants that are paying the price.

If you encounter gun-shy merchants, it's because we're being burned every day.

I will never ask a cusotmer for ID (I can't) - but if the customer calls and asks me to ship the merch, i'll do an address verification - and only ship to either the billing address, or an approved ship-to address that the customer has established with their credit card. If we have proof of delivery to the customer's address, it's unlikely to be fraud. This is why were are a little hesitant to ship out of the country to customers not known to us, since we can't track it as well (and AVS is next to impossible in many countries).

I have numerous addresses on file with AMEX and my major credit cards, so that I can do ship-to transactions while on the road. This is not an invasion of my privacy, rather a preventative measure to simplify my life. Trust me, chasing this stuff down is a PITA.

But we're off track here... just wanted to clarify this point.

cpd

pointman -

i did misunderstand. thats what i get for posting before i had enough coffee in my system. i apologize...

They still do - at least in Canada. My Citibank Mastercard (used to be Visa) has not only my picture but also my signature on the front of the card.

BTW, I find that the signature strips on the back are kind of useless after some months of use. They wear off; they're too narrow for my signature; and, after a while, the signature strip might show some part of a scribble (my "signature") but to be able to make any kind of comparison to the actual signature would be pretty difficult.

It seems there is some justice after all:

http://www.cleveland.com/newsflash/i...lash-financial

I would assume that the VP of Quality Assurance is high enough up the food chain that this effects him....

I'm not sure about Ohio, but my KS drivers license has a signature on it. They can compare the signature on the charge slip with the signature on my drivers license, which ALSO HAS MY PHOTO ON IT. The point of putting 'Ask for ID' is to get them to not only look at the signature, but to look at a photo ID as well. Like duxfan, I find it works less than 50% of the time, unfortunately.

How're you gonna get your employer to pay you in cash? That should be interesting. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

That's odd. I only have 1 address registered with my credit card company -- my billing address. When I'm on the road, I have stuff shipped to me all the time, using an address like:

Rich Holland
c/o Some Hotel
Hotel Street Address
City, State, Zip+4

I've yet to have a problem with this.

For about six years I have carried an article in my wallet that I cut out of a newspaper, which states that additional ID is not required for a purchase with a signed credit card. I have had to show this article a number of times and, even then, some will insist it is "store policy". If that happens, they lose a sale.

One thing I wish is that credit cards provide a slightly taller block for to sign in, and that they would NOT place your card number squarely in the middle of that signature block!

Ohio DL has a big ole signature right on the front. Luckily, we are now able to opt out of having to put our Soc. Sec. number on the card.

I don't understand why it's a big deal to simply ask to see a second ID in order to verify the user.

Circuit City did try to make a copy of my DL once. Ended that sale right there! No different than asking for a fingerprint, IMHO. Both are seemingly harmless bits of information which could be dangerous if allowed to fall into the wrong hands. And unlike your credit card, if someone is able to steal your identity, you not off the hook after the first $50.

It goes on too much anymore. Last year on my birthday, I received a phone call from my local Hollywood Video. They told me that because it was my birthday, I could come in and pick out a free rental. That means some pimply faced mananger trainee at best was given access to the stores data base to search for birthdays. That means that emplyee was given access to every customers personal information. Doesn't anyone else see the potential for misuse? Needless to say, Hollywood got ripped a new one, and I cancelled my account.

A merchant may not ask you for ID for a credit card PURCHASE transaction in which you are receiving the goods which you have purchased at the point of sale. However, the rental car agencies are not selling you a car you are going to keep, and charging you $20,000 on your credit card. Rather, for a measly $20-50 per day, they are renting this car to you, and expecting its safe return. The rental car agency can certainly ask for your drivers license (and other identification if they want to) as security to protect their investment (i.e., that $20,000 car they are about to loan to you, a stranger with a credit card). While some may object to providing fingerprints or other identification, I do not believe that a car rental firm violates anything by asking for it.

Djlawman

If I'm not terribly mistaken, I think the rental car companies ask for your driver's license to make sure you're actually *eligible* to drive the car. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

As for the fingerprint, it's far too intrusive.

I agree, Taucher, *far* too intrusive.

Any merchant who ships to a non-billing address is at risk of a chargeback. My company won't do this.

If one of my employees ships to a hotel room that is not the billing address or on-file with the issuing bank, that will be the last transaction they do for me.

I have not lost a sale yet - my customers understand and they simply call their issuing bank and advise of the alternate ship-to.

A thief may read this and figure out a loophole in the system... it's big and wide. That's why merchants have to be careful, and customers understanding of why merchants have to be careful.

cpd

Well, you won't be getting any business from me. You can't honestly expect that people who stay in 30 hotels a year are going to call their credit card companies and get new addresses put on file every time they need to order something. I'd do it once, if I had a second house, for instance, but not 5 times a year with different hotels. What a hassle, call the credit card company, get a hotel address put on file, buy goods and receive them at the hotel, then call the credit card company and get the address taken off?

Nope, there are too many other retailers out there who don't give customers the run around. A merchant lost my business for this same reason a few weeks ago.

d

My response to Dollar:

F--- YOU ------ My business will be elsewhere

Hey folks, please remember that unless you wear gloves when holding, reading (yeah right!) and signing the car rental form, you are leaving far more finger/thumb prints than you realize on the rental document. You are probably being video-taped too. For the present time, I will save my personal upsets for more intrusive encounters.

MisterNice

In reference to the original post:

This remedy is far worse than the disease, especially when there are alternative ways to attack the theft/fraud problem without infringing nearly so much on privacy.

And just because something might save Dollar money doesn't mean that any of it will be passed to you. Rates aren't set on a cost-plus basis and competition is the main thing driving them. If you want a good case history, check Dollar's rates in Lanai City, Hawaii, where it's the only game in town. Must be a lot of people there giving bogus information and driving the car off the island!

(steps off soapbox)