Scientist kicked off AS plane at PDX
 

The Society for Neuroscience's annual meeting is the largest of its kind, drawing 25,000 of the world's brain biologists. Among them, Thanos Tzounopoulos of Portland who in a black suit, got to the airport two hours early Sunday to travel.

The neuroscientist and assistant professor at Oregon Health & Science University checked in, used the restroom, called his wife twice and then sat in Portland International Airport reading scientific papers for more than an hour until Flight 572 to San Diego was called.

He was in Seat 19C, the meeting agenda on his lap, awaiting the 2:41 p.m. takeoff when a ground-based Alaska Airlines employee boarded and asked him to step outside.

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http://www.oregonlive.com/news/orego...3426924100.xml

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"Yes, but at least mine will be found in a first class seat." -- Peattie and Taylor

Yet another example of our escalating paranoia. We cannot continue to permit such behavior under the guise of security. Since the police were not called, the only logical conclusion for the airline's action was to pacify the paranoid passenger(s). It appears the professor's identity and the purpose of his trip could have been easily verified. Why do passengers wait until everyone has boarded to voice their concern regarding the suspicious passenger? Didn't they notice him while waiting in the boarding area? Somehow I'm not surprised Alaska Air doesn't want to meet with him and his attorney.

I'm wondering when I'll get kicked off a flight, this is getting so strange. For example, before we get airborne, it's always hot in the cabin. Will someone notice I'm sweating and say, hey, he's sweating so he might be a terrorist?

Jack Walsh, spokesman for Alaska Airlines, based in Seattle, said the airline is merely tightening procedures that most passengers welcome.

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http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Sounds like a load of crap to me!

Time to PLEASE stop this nonsense!

So now we're at the point where passengers can essentially force each other off aircraft? Hmmm...I wonder if this is a way to free up that center seat...

You know, I've been really tolerant that in these times of uncertainty and adjustment to reasonable caution, that many innocents will be unjustly trapped in a net not meant for them. But this is so far beyond the pale that it defies understanding. Seems the airlines are a long way from defining "reasonable caution" if I have the power to throw someone off the plane because they seem contemplative.

This is the same nonsense as the National Guard guy bullying the freelancer about taking pictures in an airport ... and keeping a guy off a plane because the security guys essentially didn't like the book he was reading.

It's ludicrous.

If an airline has a question about a passenger, run him through the scanners two or three times -- wand him extensively, have two employees hand-search his carry-ons. But when he passes those tests, it's pointless to keep him off the plane: The airline has investigated thoroughly, and disproved its suspicions. Case closed.

Continuing to throw away our liberties, common sense and integrity in a misguided stampede for "security" is self-defeating.

This has gone too far! Salem witch trials 2001!

Along the same line, if everyone in F looks suspicious, can I score an operational upgrade when they're all thrown off? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif




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"Yes, but at least mine will be found in a first class seat." -- Peattie and Taylor

This is certainly a form of BLATANT discrimination. Unless someone is doing something illegal or endangering the safety of other passengers or flight crew, there is no logical reason that someone should be escorted off a flight merely because another passenger had a whimsical "bad feeling."

Should I have this same "bad feeling" whenever a grossly overweight person sits next to me in Coach? Or when a mother with a crying kid kicks the back of my seat?

If it is really necessary to detain a person on the whim of a passenger, the whole flight should be detained while the person is "re-screened" and briefly interviewed by a security officer and then allowed to reboard otherwise it will lead to people abusing the system.

I lived in Oregon for over 30 years and now live in Los Angeles. It is unfortunate that there are so many xenophobic people living in Oregon because it is such a beautiful state with many very caring and intelligent people. This has also been an on-going problem with INS officers working at the Portland airport. Foreign tourists have complained bitterly to the U.S. State Department that they are harassed by PDX INS agents (highest % of complaints of any airport).

Although I dont know the particulars about this incident it sure rubs me the wrong way. The Port of Portland and Alaska Airlines are doing themselves a huge disfavor by telling international visitors and foreign-born nationals to stay away!




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Jim Wilkins

Fortuntely, PDX has paid the price and has lost all long-haul international service.

You're just lucky it's not summer, or you'd be out!

This hits close to home. I've just returned from the same conference, although fortunately not through PDX. I hope the fact that I routinely put my steel-shanked shoes through the x-ray to prevent the alarm going off doesn't qualify me as suspicious. Neuroscientists can be an eclectic-looking bunch, but most of them are harmless.

So if we (elites) report all those suspicious looking FC PAX, do we get to u/g into their seats before the plane leaves?

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EWR CO Gold

What happened to the professor was simply incredible. AS owes him a huge apology.

I feel like we are in some communist country where youe can be reported by a neighbor who evesdrops on you. Any one of us could have gone to the bathroom, made a couple of urgent calls, and looked pensively into the air while reading a difficult book. Better yet, maybe someone just wants my aisle seat!

The accused should have had the right to face the accuser.

I sweat in the winter while boarding as I try to install two carseats, stow the carryons and stow the kids. You should see me in the summer (humans who don't sweat scare me http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif). And my reward for spending money and traveling is the distinct possibility of being kicked off the flight if other pax think I look suspicious? People, mind your own business and leave your fellow pax alone!

If you're uncomfortable flying with me on board, get off the d$#* plane, you stupid hicks.

Too bad so many Americans can't fathom the possibility that 9/11 may have been a one-time incident. Everybody wants to "spot the terrorists" on their flight. Same malady that will cause 20 million people (no, make that more like 40 million) to claim to their grandkids that they were in New York watching the events of 9/11 in person instead of on TV. How pathetic.

If the FAA implements enough stupid rules (like the DCA 30 minute rule), air marshalls will catch a "terrorist" every week, while contributing absolutely nothing useful.

The President asked everyone to be observant and cautious, but behavior like this isn't what he meant. May Alaska be the next carrier to fold.

You can't blame pax and crew for being observant....wrong yes....but observant no.

He should have been re-searched, briefly questioned and allowed to fly....that would have been a little more logical IMHO.

A little harsh, no? Would you think it fair for someone to wish the demise of your company for making a mistake? I can't say a thing to defend Alaska since I know absolutely nothing of the situation but what was reported in a paper. We all know how the news likes to sensationalize things. That not withstanding, if the papers report is 100% accurate then I think AS owes him a HUGE apology and some sort of compensation for his humiliation and inconvenience.

I have had passengers report "suspicious looking" persons several times now. Not once did I request that this person even be questioned. I took one look and could see that this person was harmless. Not only that, I feel very confident that a hijacking similar to that which happened on 9/11 will never happen again. Passengers are ready to assist when needed and with the flight deck doors being reinforced there is virtually no way for a hijacker to get at the controls. If someone decides to bomb a plane I think they are going to be much more creative than to carry it on themselves. Just an FYI that we at Alaska Airlines are not a bad bunch. We aren't throwing people off the planes willy nilly. I think every other airline has thrown off proportionately as many or more people than we at Alaska do. I read a story in the paper just about every other day about one airline or another escorting passengers off for being "suspicious". In fact, I was just on a TW flight recently where they escorted someone off.

This absolute nonsense has got to stop. I have flown El-Al, the secure standard everyone swears by. The fact of the matter is that once you have cleared the El-Al security, no passenger has a right to play vigilante and get you thrown off the flight.

By letting the airlines & passengers have lattitude, the FAA is indirectly admitting that their security prcedures are inadequate and tacitly asking the passengers to be a vigilante militia. There is a big difference between letting the captain have complete control of the aircraft and blatant discrimnation.

As an Indian American I am proud of my heritage and if I get stopped by an airline, I plan to take it right to the Supreme Court. Somebody has to take a stand.

Also, I might do the all American thing and also short the airline stock!

That's my .02

MSP2000

Surely those of us with a more liberal viewpoint need now simply to boycott Alaska and to start boycott each airline that treats it passengers like this?

I'm not a liberal, but I'll join your boycott of AS.

AS Flyer, please post the press release of AS' apology if and when it appears.

So what do you do if it happens to you? Do you insist on security being called in, or would that just make things worse?

If this happens to me, then I would request that they formally notify security and have them come down to clear me. I have been accused and I think it'd be best for everyone, including myself, that the matter be explored.

How many would-be criminals or terrorists would call security down on themselves?

At the same time, though this is not a criminal proceeding, I would ask to be able to confront my accuser. It's a commonly recognized principle in American society.

I would also tell the airline agent that unless security finds something suspicious about me, they can expect a civil discrimination complaint to be filed against them for doing this.

And after security admits they have nothing to hold me on, or to accuse me of, I would then tell the airline that they better re-accomodate me or offer a full refund, plus compensation for the delay, and an apology on top of that.

(posted at the same time as Plato90s)

Anyone being kicked off a flight absolutely needs to make sure security is called. Do
not let the crew push you around when you haven't even left the gate. If you're on
the plane, have security board the plane and escort you off.

Why? Because security may be able to convince the crew that the passenger is not
a threat (unlikely I guess but it's possible), and because you need to have
independent witnesses. Passengers are witnesses but difficult to locate.

Ideally, if you can have the local police officially kick you off the flight rather
than the crew or airport security, you can create a paper trail to be used later
against the airline.

Someone needs to put a stop to this nonsense, and a lawsuit may be the only way
to get the airline's attention, unfortunately.

[This message has been edited by JS (edited 11-15-2001).]

I've used the "send this thread in an email" option at the top of this thread and have sent the link to the thread to my Congressman, Cass Ballenger. I've explained briefly what our group represents and that as a concerned flyer and citizen, I am at once very tolerant of stutter steps as we search for reasonable security, yet appalled that this incident would be tolerated under any circumstances.

I couldn't have said it better, futhermore the airline is suppose to call ground security control GSC when there is a security issue, they are never to take it in their own hands and pull anyone off the flight. I'm lost for words cause any major airline would know this! IS PDX this bad? In the future if any one of you are asked to leave an aircraft instruct them to call GSC and the airport operations. THAT alone will roll some heads. Airline employees are instructed to call GSC when something is out of line. I think some agents are employing on a power trip. Sadly but true!

A little caution regarding what JS said above. That is, you may not be in "trouble" if you get off a flight and then go find a supervisor to complain. However, if you refuse to comply with a direction from a member of the flight crew, that can be a federal crime and you *might* get in trouble for refusing to comply with the order, even if the order is questionable.

(I am a lawyer, but not a criminal lawyer. This is written from memory. I have not researched what effect the "questionable" nature of the order would have on the outcome of any criminal prosecution. However, my point here is simply to mention that you don't have any "right" to require a police officer to document a paper trail.)

I'm not a lawyer either, but I can't imagine why asking for security or a police officer
would be grounds for a federal charge. One thing I do know is that being charged with a
federal crime and being convicted and punished with a federal crime are two
different things. I'll take my chances at being charged and worry
about a conviction later. I trust the judicial system enough not to needlessly
give away my civil liberties despite being at an airport.

If you're willing to assume Congress gave the cabin crew this power only because there
are no police officers while in flight, it's not unreasonable to ask for
security/police while on the ground, at the gate, with the door open.

Once the door has been closed, security/police is no longer an option, but
of course the FA can't throw you off the flight unless he/she opens the door, at
which time you're back to asking for security/police. Does that make sense?

[This message has been edited by JS (edited 11-15-2001).]

Couldn't you just say "I'll comply because I don't believe I have an option. But I want GSC and Airport Operations to confirm this decision and document your actions before I leave the facility" - I mean, face it - you're off the plane - you can't refuse to leave the plane with any hope of success at all. If nothing else, by challenging that, you've drawn a line in the power game and they have ALL the power - at that point in the game, anyway.

I'd like guidance on what should happen AFTER you deplane - because my personal opinion is that once they ask you to leave, you're gone - willingly or not. So who do you ask for, what can you demand, who do you call? Those are the questions I'd like answers to. If this happens to me, I want to make sure my ducks are setup for lawsuit, compensation, whatever.

[This message has been edited by svpii (edited 11-16-2001).]

I'd like to clarify that you should be asking for security to come down as you are complying with the order. Refusing to deplane will make everyone more nervous and put you in a worse position.

Asking/demanding to see security (while you gather up your carry-on and deplaning) would emphasize that you are cooperating, but is definitely not happy about the arbitrary way things are happening.

If they come aboard and ask you to get off the plane, as soon as your out of the jetway and into the terminal THEN demand a GSC and Airport Operations. Terminal is not FEDERAL.... The jetway and the plane is, its on airside.

Sorry I wasnt clear earlier

If you must restrain ur words and unhappiness till your off the plane and out of the jetway.

A few weeks ago, I was pulled off an HP plane at EWR. On the jetway was a PA police officer, a NJ state trooper and an Army guy with a big gun.

Turns out somebody saw me in the PC looking at a terminal map and was concerned. (Was meeting a friend in Vegas, wanted to know where to go.)

It must've been at least 15-20 minutes between the time I left the club to board. I suppose the fact that I was looking for passengers to give my free companion upgrade to made me look even more suspicious.

The officers were all polite, acknowledged the awkwardness of the situation and after a few questions, got me back on the plane.

I would stay calm, cool, and rational. I would ask them flat out, why am I being removed from this flight? And if they told me, well, it's because someone saw you sweating and it made them nervous, I would say, come on, after all the flights I've taken with you you're going to take me off the plane because someone who's flown like twice in the past year is nervous?

I'd remind them that I generate more money for them in one month than most people generate for them in one year and that I have a very vested interest in them continuing to operate.

And if all that didn't work, I'd say, search my bags, search me, I have nothing to hide. And if you're going to bump me to the next flight because of this, you need to upgrade me because you've inconvenienced a very good customer.

Yelling and screaming would only provide them with a reason to pull you. If you stay calm and rational, then the person who complained starts to look really stupid and it becomes very hard for them to justify doing what he wants.