I like the explanation that siliconengineer gave and I'm all for a few good units being rejected in the name of safety......and as for the inconvenience and irritation that you receive when you are profiled......I'm a clean cut, 6'tall white guy, and get tagged all the time because of my frequent trips to SA with just 2 small carry ons.....so live with it.....or you may not live at all. I feel sorry for all of our Arab/Muslim citizens of both our countries for what they may endure in the next few years as a result.

THE TIME FOR POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IS OVER !!!

It disturbs me how easy it is demand the sacrifice of OTHER PEOPLE's rights and civil liberties to preserve YOUR safety. Hasn't our country lost enough without calling for shredding of the Constitution?

I in no way want to tread on the rights of fellow Americans and am having trouble trying to sort this out. The main problem is very few Americans subsrcibe to the belief of commiting an act of suicide gurantees you a ticket to heaven. The people most prone to this are from the Middle East and they look Middle Eastern. US customs can legally profile people and since flying is not a "right", laws could be written to allow airport security officers to use profling as long as it is not the only means in keeping are people safe.

Everyone knows that in the past, if you buy one-way tickets with cash, you are flagged and at times questioned about your acts. What people are doing now is no different.

Perhaps everyone should be required to arrive 3 to 4 hours early and undergo a personal interview. Or maybe one time in order to get "clearance" to fly commercial airliners. If we want to fly we should be willing to be fingerprinted and check in that way. I am not complaining but "WARNING" because it is a waste of good resources if 7 police officers interrogate every person who goes to the bathroom before taking off, or changes seats or tries to go standy-by - things we all have done and thought were OK. I certainly would rather there be an error on the side of caution, I want to feel safe when I fly, but how is security really going to do this. I was in the Peace Corps in Tunisia for 2 years with really wonderful people who were very pro-American and would hate to think that they among all other arab looking, sounding, or country of origin are considered guilty before proven innocent. Japanese internment in WWII all over again. It is awful. Carioca, please don't take on an attitude "...just live with it..." It is unnecessary. Some people in your high profile situation would stop bringing carry-on's and check their luggage. It sounds like my nephew looks a lot like you (unless you are a brunette)

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DtG

dgordon.....

I have no attitude....I just meant to make a point...no offence intended.

If only our airports had the security of a Strategic Air Command base or some of the Victor Alert sites in Europe things would be a lot better off and we might not have a need for such things.

robinhood.....

in asking for it I am also surrendering myself to the same treatment and suspension of my rights as well......after all....my rights are no good to me if I'm dead.

[This message has been edited by Carioca Canuck (edited 09-16-2001).]

Carioca Canuck -- I don't mean this to be offensive so please don't be offended -- but as a "clean cut, 6' tall white guy" you won't be the one facing the brunt of what you prescribe.

robinhood.....

The reason I won't be facing the brunt of it is because people of my race/color/politicial belief haven't been flying airplanes into skyscrapers.

Sorry to have to tell you this in case you hadn't noticed.

But I don't seem to recall there being such a rush to shred constitutional rights when people of your race/color/political belief were blowing up Federal buildings with truck bombs.

Which essentially reaffirms my initial point -- which is that it's pretty easy for you to demand the sacrifice of other people's rights and liberties to preserve your security.

I take offense at Robinhood's remarks. 100% of airline hijackings resulting in death in the past decade have been from a particular ethnic/religious group. 100% of airplanes flown into, AND attempted plots to do so in the past, have been attributed to a particular ethnic/religious group.

Not that ALL people of that profile present a problem, but it certainly justifies closer scrutiny. AND YES, Robinhood, white, young, militia-types as a group WERE profiled and subjected to heightened scrutiny after Oklahoma City. If anything, that idiot McVeigh's greatest accomplishment was the discrediting/dismantling of the militia movement in the US.


http://a1944.g.akamai.net/7/1944/140...56027.jpg[

[This message has been edited by se94583 (edited 09-16-2001).]

se94583 -- you say "white, young, MILITIA-TYPES as a group WERE profiled..." which is exactly the point. What about profiling people on the sole criterion of being white (regardless of militia affiliation), which is what you seem to advocate when you say we should harass people on the sole criterion of being Arab? That's the comparison that ought to be made.

No one disputes that we ought to take every reasonable step to combat terrorism. All I'm saying is that we should exercise caution because it's easy to trade liberty for security when it's other people's liberty you're trading away (witness Japanese internment camps).

As for your taking offense, I apologize if that was your reaction to my comments. It was a response to Carioca Canuck's comments and not intended to offend you, him, or anyone else for that matter.

The problem with combatting terrorism is that you must take unreasonable steps in order to be successful.

The group doing these actions is identifiable at this point....whether they be white, black, green or brown is irrelevant.....they are identifiable and until this group stops its actions, those who are similiar must be subject to scrutiny above and beyond what civil liberties allow for.

Don't blame us....we gave you the rights and liberties....now they have to be suspended for a while.

I have Arab friends and they are in agreement with this position.

Can't you understand that ?


[This message has been edited by Carioca Canuck (edited 09-16-2001).]

true. I would suspect that any legitimate Arab-Americans have the sense not to travel by air in the near future unless its vital. Sad reality, but if you resemble the suspect group, you must accept the risks.

As an American of Japanese Ancestry, I'm sensitive--perhaps overly so, I admit--to the entire notion of profiling on the basis of race or national origin. Nevertheless, I'm appalled at the cavalier attitude expressed in many posts in this thread...which, after all, began with a warning about behavior that might be misinterpreted.

I understand the reality that the majority in this country, never a tolerant bunch to begin with, will more readily than ever be prepared to point suspicious fingers at a "suspect group." But finger-pointing absent reasonable cause undermines the foundation upon which this nation is built, as history clearly shows.

I've stayed out of the political discussions of the aftermath of the week's tragic events, but I can't be silent any longer given what's been said both in this thread, and in one FlyerTalker's personal tale, which is in the Trip Reports board at http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum81/HTML/002144.html

I'd suggest reading that post and thinking what it might be like to walk in that FlyerTalker's shoes today.

It's interesting to read the "two sides" on this thread. As a white male it is easy for me to be on one side. In fact, sometimes only my being gay keeps me on the other side.

I have the tendency to agree with profiling--after all, as some have said, it has been a certain group which has caused recent events. But then as I came from the US into Canada (something I have done many times), I was singled out and my 2 carry-ons were gone through thoroughly and I was interrogated by customs, not immigration.

Why?

Well, I have a beard and dark hair. I have both a German and a US passport. I flew to Canada to start my RTW which was going to take me back into the US the next day. Mileage runs make little sense to poorly paid gov't employees. I had some Turkish Lira since pre-Tuesday I thought Istanbul may be fun to visit. Bad choice post-Tuesday--at least in some people's eyes.

I felt totally harrassed. MY country had been attacked.

I can only think that other Americans who are Moslem, have the WRONG names, look WRONG, etc. would/will feel similarly.

Maybe not skyscrapers, but next time you rent a Ryder truck they should interogate you so you don't go blow up another federal building, maybe next time you go into a grocery store, bank, or gas station they pull you down to the station, or maybe next time you get married or have girlfriend they haul you down to the psychiatrists office just so you don't have domestic abuse, there is a much deeper history of tall white blonde headed guys committing those crimes than of middle eastern descent crashing planes into skyscrapers

Remember when they do that, its for the safety of all of us