Most despicable image of the day
 

While the sight of planes crashing into the towers, and the towers collapsing are certainly horrifying, the most terrible image is the scenes of people in the middle east celebrating. People were actually running through the streets jumping for joy. I can not believe that anyone could be happy about this. No matter how much you dislike a country and its politics, I just can not imagine wishing death upon that many innocent people. I don't know much about middle eastern politics, but I certainly hope that this is not the actions of the majority of people. Best wishes to all the friends and family of any victims,

I have seen that same footage also. If you look carefully, it is mostly children/teenagers and a few adults fueling the fire.

I do believe some radical Middle Eastern factions carried all this out, but the one tape being played over and over again does nothing but fuel the fire also.

And I wonder what kind of back-lash we will see against those of mid-eastern descent? I have this sick feeling that it's going to get ugly for a while. This is all so unbelievable.

I was upset that even as news anchors were reiterating that no definite suspects had been named - and so no ethnic groups should be targeted - they kept showing that footage. It was just so provoking - I cannot imagine why, I understand it is news, however, as an Indian, who saw the aftermath of the assasination of Prime Minister Indira Gandhi and communal riots, I just felt the same sick apprehension when I saw these videos.

I agree those dancing is completely infuriating. Whether or not they believe the US is the Great Satan or whatever, this was innocent civilians who were killed. I may be happy if Iraqi soldiers were terminated by our army, but I would definitely not feel the same way if innocent civilians were targeted exclusively.

In any case, as someone who can possibly be mistaken of Middle Eastern descent I am also worried of backlash. They had an interview with a Arabian grocer who works in downtown Pittsburgh and asked if he was worried. He said no because he's lived here for 55 years and everybody knows him. Similarly, I feel ok in my neighborhood, but unsure if I want to drive to new places in the short term.

In certain Lebanese restaurants in London last night, waiters were talking about the good that was done in New York. They should be deported.

There have been several scenes of celebations in the West Bank and Jerusalem. It was these same type of idiots that cheered when Saddam Hussein launched scuds at Israel during the Gulf war. I felt no sympathy when a few of the scuds hit the West Bank and killed several Palestinians.

I really dont give a sh*t about whatever circumstances could get these uneducated idiots to cheer about this. I also must say that I could care less about collateral damage that may occur in that part of the World or Afghanistan in the coming days.

Hanan Ashrawi commented today on CNN about the fact that they felt very sorry, and put in a plug about 11 Palestinians that were killed last night in Jerusalem (like anyone could really care at this moment in time). When looked at objectively, more people were killed in New York than have been killed in the entire Palestinian conflict. Ever.

I would submit that this scene may well represent only about 1% or so (perhaps even) less) or so of the local populations true feelings, no?

There's one in evry crowd, so to speak!

I'm scheduled to fly to lgw and cdg next week. We are still going and have realized that we will have to allow another hour for the questioning and security clearing that I, an american citizen, of middle eastern descent, will have to go through. I am not looking forward to it, but realize that it is better to be safe than sorry.

I fit no profile, just had the luck of being born in a country that has no diplomatic ties with the US.

lala

The problem is that those kids dancing in the streets today will be suicide bombers in a decade, fueled by a childhood of hatred and bogus religion.

Right now, the adults know better. This needs to be taken care of now, not in 10 years.

With many offices and retail businesses closed in San Francisco after the terrorist attacks in New York yesterday, my partner and I learned that our offices would also be closed for the day and resumed watching the coverage on television for several hours. While no new reports were being announced, we decided to go out for a walk in our neighborhood and reflect on what we had been watching. One block from our home is our neighborhood commercial area, Chestnut Street; we live in the Marina District, for those familiar with The City.

Not expecting too many people, we made a right on the corner where the retail shops, restaurants, banks and other businesses were located to find 2 young ladies tugging at the door of the Williams-Sonoma store, visibly and verbally upset that the store had closed early, as so many others had on the street. I was taken back by their attitude, that today, a day off, would become a shopping opportunity for them. I’m not suggesting that everyone was to stay home with the drapes drawn, however, a shopping excursion was the last thing that I would have ever considered doing on a day such as yesterday.

A block down, the Pottery Barn store has just closed and a small group had gathered, my immediate reaction was that a small riot would ensue, as again, people were commenting that they could not believe that the shops had closed, as they pushed and pulled on the doors.

While most retail shops has closed, most restaurants were open, patrons spilling onto the sidewalk seating areas, laughing and having a good time, as if it were the weekend, which is normally the scene for this part of town. Café after café, the scene was repeated, people sunning themselves, having a good time as if nothing has happened and as if it were a national holiday. Again, I wasn’t expecting everyone to be in a somber mood, I was really surprised by the lack of emotion and the festive atmosphere, it made me a little upset.

While not trying to be dramatic about this, as people have different ways of dealing with tragedies, I felt ashamed for most of the people I saw, taking advantage of a day off to go shopping or have brunch with friends.

Interesting post, here in Boston everyone I ran across, even today, in the suburbs, at the gym, are still just walking around in a sort of catatonic state. It is just horrible.

In a twisted amount of travel related irony, my Express-mailed-monday passport and visa application to a Washington DC foriegn embassy still hasn't left the Boston PO. so any committment to fly next week may be neither the FAA or my personal choice.

Maybe there is something wrong with me, but I have always been struck by the "adult" Palestinians who let there children run wild in the streets, throwing rocks at the Israeli military etc. It seems to me that they have no regard for the lives of their children and it is only their cause that is important to them.

Finally, I have always tried to keep an open mind about Middle Eastern politics, but my immediate reaction to seeing those people celebrating was that I wouldn't give a rat's ... if they all went to heaven immediately (if you know what I mean)!

The most despicable image wasn't the celebration in the street (although that was inhumane and awful enough). It was watching people forced to choose between burning to death and falling to their death leaping from the towers.

The greatest terrorist recruiting tool is the Israeli bulldozers taking out palestinian homes in the middle of the night.
You just created homeless people with nothing to lose, and where their home used to be, they see a new foreign settlement or road where their home was -- well what is more dangerous than justifiably enraged people with nothing to lose? There is a reason these people have been radicalized, a good part of it is a sense extreme injustice, helplessness and desperation. Of course some of these poor people just become pawns for rich people with grand evil schemes, but they wouldn't be pawns if their lives weren't already a living hell. It may be convenient and expedient to dehumanize and demonize palestinians, but there is a reason they have been radicalized in recent years. None of this implies I agree with what the extremists do, but knowing the reasons may help to prevent it in future...

I think we should retaliate fiercely again bin laden and his cronies wherever they are (afghanistan, Chechnya, pakistan, etc..), but lets be honest about the causes of hatred. It didn't come from nowhere...

That's the "image" I would choose; unfortunately, the other one mentioned has become too commonplace.

That's the "image" I would choose; unfortunately, the other one mentioned has become too commonplace.

I had been wondering what the general response was out on the West Coast. My guess is that what these observations can largely be explained by proximity.

If/when California ets hit by the Big One (earthquake), perhaps a similar fraction of east coasters will be equally callous.

Be careful. In many cases previous to the intifada houses were bulldozed because the land was not owned by the people living on it, nor did they have permission to live on it. South Africa under Aparteid got a lot of flack for this. These days bulldozings happen ten times more than in the aparteid days!

So the Israeli's are responsible for the attacks on WTC and The Pentagon??

Benoit-

Watch it... Uninformed inflamatory rhetoric is extremely dangerous. Not to mention extraordinarily insensitive in this time of immensive world-wide tension and American pain.

Maybe not dispicable but significant, is the image of the people jumping from the windows 100 stories up, then the lone shoe sitting in the rubble. Imagining the horror of a moment where a human chooses one horrific death over another. Perhaps one of the same people who took a moment to call home and leave an I love you message on an answering machine.
I agree with those of you who challenge the effectiveness of the media's playing those few clips of celebration. Those people can not be the majority. The press is doing an great job with coverage but it seems as though they don't recognize their power in determining the mood and beliefs our our nation when they deliberately try to insitgate feelings of anger and desire for revenge towards entire nations. We don't need blanket anger towards nations. We need patience until we find out which small group of individuals are responsible for this.
The children dancing in that news clip do not understand the scope of this act any more than we did at their age. It might as well be a sporting event to them. They are probably being told that it represents freedom and an end to their poverty or whatever suffering is in their lives. I can't even muster anger towards them, only pity.

I have waited a few days before posting anything anywhere about the tragedy that happened. To all the victims and their families, their friends, their colleagues - I send my sincerest and deepest condolences.

There is nothing more that I can add to express any more sorrow than has already been said countless times, far more eloquently than I can muster.

However, I will say this - no amount of anger or wrath or racial hatred is going to prevent this from happening again. No amount of killing or bloodshed or violence is going to stop more destruction. You do not fight fire with fire... you fight fire with water. This is a time for cool heads to prevail, not for fiery blood.

I am not advocating peace - action *must* be taken - and rest assured that Australia, along with the rest of the free world, will stand united alongside America to hunt down and bring these evil *******s to justice. I would even pull the trigger myself, if I could.

However, I will *not* pull the trigger on the innocent people who happen to have the same skin colour as the perceived perpertrators.

I will *not* forget that it is racial intolerance that has caused these problems in the first place.

I will *not* explode my wrath on those whom I want to be guilty, but save it for those who ARE guilty.

I will *not* forget the lessons of the past, and therefore be condemned to repeat them.

America has produced some of the greatest leaders the world has known - and one of the greatest, Martin Luther King summed up the lesson perfectly - "I have a dream... a dream that my four children will live in a world where they are judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character"

The American or Australian or British or European citizen, who happens to be of middle eastern descent, is *not* your enemy. The muslim colleague that you worked with, and joked with last week is *not* your enemy. The children who attend the local islamic school in your community is *not* your enemy.

Your enemy are those who have perpetrated this foul and vicious crime, those who aid those perpetrators, and those who advocate violence and the destruction of innocents.

You did not destroy or bomb Timothy McVeigh's neighbours, and friends, or city for the terrible crime he committed. Likewise, do not villify those who happen to be muslim. Those who are guilty *must* be punished to the fullest extent, those who are innocent should not suffer - otherwise, we are just performing the same low acts that have made us suffer today.

The world became a much uglier, colder, darker, and horrible place this week, and my grief knows no bounds for what has happened.

We can either make it uglier, colder, darker and horrible, or we can do what we can as individuals, as groups, as nations, and as a world, to try and make things better.

What decision will you make?

Thank you for listening to my rant, and god bless.



[This message has been edited by 4me2no (edited 09-13-2001).]

There would be nothing more despicable than targeting Arabs and Muslims in this country, just as bad as suggesting that the Israelis are to blame somehow. Bin Laden's hate for America goes far beyond the Palestinian question. It seems like its the American way of life that is hated. Apparently, early reports suggest most of the people involved in the hijackings are Egyptian and Saudi Arabian nationals.

I agree with Paris...probably 99% of the Muslims in this country disagree with Bin Laden and the Taliban (I'm not a Muslim, but I'm speculating based on people I know and what I've seen since this tragedy). What the Taliban believe in seems to bear little resemblence to the rest of Islam... Like I said on another thread: comparing Bin Laden to mainstream American Muslims is like comparing David Koresh to mainstream American Christians. It's very sad when I hear that Americans are vandalizing mosques, harassing Arab students, etc. It doesn't make any sense.

4me2no,

Thanks for a very well-written message. I also agree that although we are shouting "revenge", we should exact justice only after identifying the real criminals behind this heinous crime. Even if Afghanistan is found to have been in cooperation with the criminals, I do not agree with bombing Kabul, as some posters have suggested.

We are Americans, we need to remember the people of Afghanistan have also suffered under the Taliban regime. Our indiscriminate bombing of Kabul or nuking Afghanistan will only add to the suffering there, and not necessarily harm the real criminals. All of us will have bloood on our hands, making us no better than the criminals themselves.

As you pointed out, Timothy McVeigh was tried and executed, and we are not like some other governments that will go bulldoze the McVeigh family home or arrest McVeigh relatives just because they are from the same family. Hatred and revenge will only breed more hatred and revenge.

Yes, and I watched a press release having the crown prince of Saudi Arabia state his support for the US, distancing themself from Bin Laden, and also promising to pump extra oil if necessary to keep supplies at current levels.

I think almost all of the world, be them of any nationality, think this was a despicable crime. Those responsible should pay; those that look those responsible should not.

The question of how expansive the retaliation should be is difficult partly because there is only a grey area dividing those who are "responsible" and those who are not. The ones most directly responsible are the ones who hijacked the planes; obviously no retribution can be carried out on them since they're dead. Next level is the group of people, the ground support, architects, and financiers of the plan who now hide; I think international opinion would not be very controversial on how to deal with them. Next level out might be those who were not involved with this attack but are currently harboring plans to carry out similar attacks in the future, and this level out is probably where the controversy begins: is it moral to kill those who have not done anything wrong, yet? How, precisely, is "harboring plans" defined, and how much proof is needed to determine this?

Lowering the threshold of accountability might reduce the probability of future attack. At the same time, the larger the net cast, the more difficult and questionable the search, and thus the greater the potential for radicalization of currently law-abiding people (the vast majority, it should be noted).

Both those who urge all-out war and those taking the idealistic but naive position that we should "turn the other cheek" seem to me to be oversimplifying a very difficult problem. But I am happy to admit that I have no idea what the proper response is. If anything, I would urge people to consider reducing the certainty of whatever opinion you have, especially right now, when the general public has really no knowledge of detailed facts of the web of people responsible.

If the solution to terrorism were obvious, we would've done it long before now.

Benoit - Rich Saudi young man goes to Afghanistan to fight against Russians, finances the groups that evolve into the Taliban. Returns to Saudia after Russians leave, becomes royally p/o'd that US troops are still on holy ground and starts to take actions against ruling Saud family, leading to freezing of assets in Saudia and expulsion. Goes back to Afghanistan and continues, escalating into attacks on civilians. (CNN's web site has a decent summary on Bin-Laden this morning).

1. What's the connection to Israel and the Palestinians?
2. Even if by some remote thread of logic you do make a connection, where is the basis for the kind of crappy post you made?
3. Within your post there is so much nonsense I don't know where to start. Maybe with the fact that some of the houses were built w/o permits, maybe some of them were used as sniper posts? Maybe with the fact that they are not replaced by roads or settlements, but left as they were?

Once you start looking for reasons to "understand" terrorism you can't stop. There is always going to be someone out there that's not happy with the way things are and feel they have to change the system by violence. Reasons are not needed.

Bin Laden, millionaire with a dangerous grudge

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/bin...ile/index.html

Posted earlier at:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum.../002933-8.html

[b]raffy[\b], I agree completely with you. As the towers were burning and disintegrating before our very eyes on Tuesday, vendors were still selling cheap wallets, belts and CDs as sirens wailed around them. I could not believe it. One vendor (on 6th Ave, with a clear view of the WTC) tried to shove a sales flier in my hand and I turned to her and said, "You have GOT to be kidding, don't you know what is happening?!" Then on a corner further south as the second tower exploded were three women, smiling and laughing, discussing one's sunglasses, where she had bought them, debating UV aspects of them and so on ... while most people around them were in tears and shock, screaming that the tower had gone .... I don't see how these women could have not known what was going on even if tourists. How oblivious and self-centered can someone be? I did see a few people shopping that day and wondered how they could do this. I even felt guilty taking my cat to the vet yesterday, how could I be thinking of this when so many have died, and even for eating something and for being hungry, when so many don't know where their loved ones are and so many will never be able to eat again, but then I also tried to give blood right after. Life goes on, I guess, even if we are all numb with pain. But it IS hard to comprehend how people could act so cavalierly.

CozumelJen & raffy,
While what you saw you may have perceived as cavalier, I choose to see this as denial. Many people cannot take in horror like this immediately, so choose to focus on other things until they can.
As for the going out to dinner thing. I live in NYC about 1 1/2 miles from the WTC. Deli's and some restaurants were open last night(Wed). People were outside eating and conversing. Maybe they weren't laughing joyously, but they were trying to continue their lives in a 'normal' manner. I believe, as our elected officials have stated, that to return to the state of normalcy is the best revenge we as citizens can do. We cannot show fear, or the secondary part of this horrific attack would come to fruition.
The feeling here, is not fear, more a feeling of wanting & needing to help, but so far, our help as citizens is not needed at the moment. I suspect the feeling is more exasperated outside the city, where the only info people have, is the televised images of horror.
Stay calm, safe, and clearheaded. This is just the start of a long effort to recover from this mess.

sorry, dupe

[This message has been edited by tigertiger (edited 09-13-2001).]

CozumelJen, good to hear from you. Was reading your posts on Tues. morning saying how you were watching the WTC from your window, then you seemed to dissapear. Glad you're ok.

I also agree. Tiger Tiger (the business) has been pretty much shut down for the past 2 days as Tiger & Tiger (the principals) tried to get in touch with loved ones in NYC and VA, and try to come to terms with all this. Our phones were pretty quiet, and all but 1 or 2 callers seemed embarassed and apologetic that they had to be bothering with business matters at a time like this. I find it hard to believe that even on the west coast here, you could find ANYONE with NO ties to family, friends or bussiness associates in lower Manhattan. We went to the post office and the bank on Tues., just to get away from the horrific images that were keeping me glued to my monitor, and ending up spending an hour talking with our local BofA branch manager about it. (BofA had floors 9-11 and 81 in 2 WTC).

But even if not touched on a personal level, how could anyone not realized that this was a day of mourning sparked by an act of war. Business-as-usual is not an appropriate reponse.

(sorry, mindless)

[This message has been edited by tigertiger (edited 09-13-2001).]

Childhood of hatred, appears to be, yes.

Bogus Religion, NO, because if it is; Islam is as bogus religion as Christianity, as Judiasm, etc. etc.

There are members in EVERY religion who pick out/promote certain text/beliefs that are inconsistent with the whole message of that particular religion.

GREAT POINT!!

Ever seen a crowd in front of a camera??
It doesn't matter what it is for, some people will act like idiots. When your local TV station covers a fire where people have died, you'll see idiots jumping in and out of the camera, waving etc.

Chase, thank you for your well wishes on the other thread, it is truly appreciated and therefore, the following has been modified from its orginal.

I cannot agree with you on your final observation, although I do agree with your earlier sentiments. I just would like to point out that the destruction of those homes is a holdover of a law that the British had imposed and that since the Occupied Territoris have never had any form of self-government, they have been used in lieu of Israeli law, which I am sure more people would have found more objectionable. Moreover, it has been verified by many news organizations that in the P.A., extra-judicial killings are a way of life. So too, in many other Middle Eastern countries, like Iraq, where summary executions are commonplace.

Although the Israelis may bulldoze homes, they at least try to respect innocent human life, for they don't strap bombs onto their citizens to attack innocent civilians. And as for arresting members of the family just for the fact that they are relatives of those accused of terrorist activities, you have submitted no proof that their arrest was done for that mere reason, and not for some other reason like that they, too, could have been likewise deeply involved with terroristic activities.

After all, what can one expect from those who have been inculcated with venomous beliefs and statements made by parents that they are proud of the fact that their sons have killed innocent civilians?? And that Benoit answers your question -- Where do people learn such things -- Well from their parents and close relatives, and their faith, or a perversion thereof.

Islam does not have a monopoly on fanatics, witness the assasination of Prime Minister Rabin by an Orthodox Jew, who was acting on a religious edict by some rabbis similar to the "fatwas" issued by similar hate filled Imams.

Your statement that hatred and revenge will only breed hatred and revenge, would appear to condone the killing of innocents for the bulldozing of a family's home; I hope you did not mean that. I agree with you that to nuke Afghanistan and all its people, many who do not support the Taliban and are fleeing their restrictive rule, would be awful. However, if one were to adopt such reasoning noted above, one could analogize that those who advocate nukeing Afghanistan for the WTC and Pentagon terrorist actions, would be justified.

I prefer not to abide by such an eye for an eye credo, rather, I will condemn senseless violence by whomever shall commit it, regardless of the perpetrator.

The blame should be placed squarely on those who deserve it -- all those who condone and provide the support for the terroristic killing of innocent civilians.

[This message has been edited by DOC 2 BE (edited 09-13-2001).]



[This message has been edited by DOC 2 BE (edited 09-13-2001).]

Racism was not the cause of this. Misguided politics, religious conflict...maybe, but not racism.

Here I go. Many Muslim-Americans who have been in the US for years are good Americans who have nothing to do with this. I must say however that over the last few years I have spoken with many, and I repeat many Egyptian cab drivers who go on about how they hate America, the women are prostitutes and that all the Jews and Christians should be killed.

I would guess that many of those of whom I speak are not actually citizens, but need to be watched carefully.

PA unapologetic about confiscating rally footage

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/0...ews.34955.html

FWIW I have not seen anything about this outside the Israeli press.

Yonatan

Thanx for the link Yonaton, but you really must see what is up at the other forums.

D2B


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[This message has been edited by DOC 2 BE (edited 09-16-2001).]