Air Rage? How often? What is it? Ever seen it?
 

I've been meaning to post this for sveral days, and apologize if I missed a recent discussion on this topic.

Last week, the FAA released a report on Air Rage. I'm fuzzy on the numbers, but the FAA estimated about 300 incidents a year. Flight attendants estimated about 4,000 incidents a year (domestic).

This leads me to a number of questions?

1) What is "air rage"?

I've been pretty pissed before on a plane- I live in MSP, after all. If I sit silently rageful, if that Air Rage? How is this being defined. After having a flight cancelled, delayed, and being lied to about all of the above, missing an important meeting after your 8 hour delay while being treated like veal the entire time, does letting a comment slip to a mean FA that "Your airline sucks! I swear, I will never fly your airline again!" count as air rage if the passenger is buckled in and showing no physical maionfestations of rage?

Or does this require some form of assualt?


2) I have been on probably 300 flights in my life- the vast majority within the past 2 years- I've never seen it.

I know many here who have been on more flights?

Ever seen it?

3) Whose estimate is more correct?

I've never seen it myself. I've seen people be rude, down right fools and jerks, but nothing that I would ever consider a threat to the safety of the pax, employees or flight crew. Never, not even close.. I think its like everything else in the news, you hear the few bad incidents and never all the millions of good things done every day by pax, employees, flight crews etc.. So far to date in CY 01 200K miles and nothing and nothing ever before either

An airline employee might tell you different but that is just my perception.

As for definition of air rage, that it self is up for debate. I think it is when the planes, crew, or pax safety starts to become threatened. I don't think some guy mouthing off b/c he is late or wasn't upgraded is air rage (I'd call it a lack of class or making a fool of himself) unless it becomes a safety issue. Now what is a saftety issue is also debateable.

I, too, think the definition of air rage is a little fuzzy, but I would say it probably has to go beyond bad taste/bad manners.

Like BoSoxFan45 and TrojanHorse, I've never witnessed it myself, either. Once, I came close, though it happened after landing with the plane at the gate. One guy, who had his gear stashed further back in the plane rushed back there as soon as the seat belt light went off, pushing and shoving many of us aside in his haste. One pax took exception to this, and a shoving match ensued. I just sat back down so as not to be in the middle of flying fists had it escalated to that level, but it didn't.

I have often wondered that myself. I have seen a few people freak out. But I am not sure it counts as air rage.

Once on a flight from LHR to AMS, one of the pilots walked down the aisle to use the bathroom, and one guy got really upset. He became quite loud, and worried about who was flying the plane. The first FA joked that the plane was on auto-pilot, and the guy really ffreaked. They had to have a FA stand and talk to him for the whole flight. They pulled a large almost empty bottle of vodka off him, so I guess he was pretty drunk.

I am just glad I was not sitting next to him.

Just once several years ago when two pax came to blows over a FC seat mistakenly assigned to both of 'em, and an FA unfortunately took an "accidental" shot in the face when she tried to interevene and break it up! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Please also see:

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...ML/001940.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...ML/001087.html

I have never seen air-rage except for the incident that was caught on video of the NRT bound 747 that had to land in Alaska. However, on a flight from SFO-ORD last year, one PAX was offended and belittled by an FA after he simply asked a question regarding an FAA delay. The FA turned around and commented that "the 80 year old man should be able to take better care of himself". Everyone around her (including myself) knew that this comment was directed at the passenger who looked to be somewhat younger. His wife proceeded to make a statement to that FA, and then the man made his statement. I turned around and told the FA that I heard the comment, and thought she should apologize. The passenger's question was legitimate, and he was actually quite on top of things, so there was no reason for the comment. The rest of the passengers (including another younger FA who heard the comment) was quite surprised that one could be that low.

Erik.

I am amazed that I am the only one who has seen such an incident. It was a short hop from STL to ORD. A slightly drunk passenger on a delayed flight began to argue with a FA and ended up standing up, getting in her face, and pushing her backwards in the aisle. Once the situation got physical, the FA simply walked away, spoke to the cockpit and sat down until the plane landed.

Once the plane pulled into the gate, the pilot came on the loudspeaker and told the passengers that it would be a few minutes until the door would be opened at which time I saw (from my First Class seat) two uniformed US Marshals come on to the plane and take the rowdy passenger off in handcuffs.

These incidents do happen and they are often dealt with swiftly and decisively.

Hope the story gives you a good example.

I completely agree that violent, intimidating, or abusive behavior -- in an airplane or anywhere else -- is intolerable, and the violator should be punished swiftly and severely.

But I'm a little miffed off about this "air rage" campaign that the airlines and their employees seem to be on. The airlines narrow our seats, take away our leg room, add seats to the airplane so we have to walk sideways like crabs to get through the aisles, make us all fight for limited overhead space, pump potentially obnoxious alcoholics with several drinks in order to maximize their profit margins, give us little or no food on long trips -- and then they have the nerve to complain to the media and the FAA that their customers aren't giving THEM good service!

When I was in college in Boston I was travelling back home for a long-weekend at the same time as a snowstorm was hitting the area. Logan airport looked like Saigon circa April 1975. I saw one guy who was irate lean across the Continental counter and grab a CSR buy the lapels and started shaking her. The cops showed up immediately, handcuffed the guy and took him away.

I think this incident qualifies.

I think air rage can occur w/o necessarily having safety compromised. Example I saw did not even involve alcohol. A nicely dressed man and his wife on an AA flight out of DFW refused to budge from seat assignments they had before we switched to different equipment, where they would not be sitting together with their new seat assignments. I'm sure if they would have asked politely that someone would have switched their seats, but they basically told in turn the pax, the FA and the pilot to "Go to Hell". The pilot announced a delay and about 15 minutes later a marshall came on the plane to escort them off.

Yes, but if you choose to count every drunk that's not permitted to board and every time an impatient loudmouth type curses out a CSR/checkin agent...well... sadly, my count will go up considerably! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif I was only counting "physical" air rage! :eek:

On Wednesday of this week, UA SFO-SEA, we were landing, gear down, and the guy in front of me gets up to use the head. We had to do a go-around and some of the pax made comments to the guy who used the head when he came back. That guy looked like he could have been insane, seriously, so I kept my thoughts to myself. No "rage" really ever ensued but I think it came close.

haven't really seen any rage of the physical type. have flown a lot and have seen obnoxus? pax. most of them at gate or club making noise. i don't blame people who aren't ffers who panic & make themselves upset when the plane is delayed & they may miss a connection. also think that fa's should have a sense of humor.

Three years ago I had the "pleasure" of a 7 hour trip from LGA to DTW when the NW 757 was diverted to Flint (I think, or was it Saginaw?)due to a sleet storm at DTW. They keep us informed but could not let anyone off the plane as the airport was not equiped for such a large plane. I, luckily was in FC so I at least had a little room to spread out, they put a movie on, and did what they could do, but they then started running out of everything. Across the aisle from me was a CEO type that must have been used to getting his own way -- he really threw a "tizzy fit" yelling at the FA and eventually the captain. He apparently thought the NW was doing this just to spite him! It did not come to blows, but it came real close. There apparently were other "incidents" in back. In any case when we got to DTW the plane was met by three uniformed officers who escorted several of the passengers, including the CEO, off the plane. I just got to spend the night in a Detroit motel til I could get out the next AM -- that was penalty enough for me!

[This message has been edited by trd (edited 07-13-2001).]

Here's a case of air rage that took place even BEFORE the door closed. My CO flight between EWR-ATL was delayed a few minutes yesterday while the captain escorted a couple of foul-mouthed young passengers off the aircraft to the cheers of the front section of coach shortly after completion of the boarding process. The pilot apologized for the slight delay, explained that the individuals "really showed their true colors in the jetway", and got us to Hartsfield on time.

Classic case of air rage on a Lufthansa plane from Frankfurt to JFK last August. The American woman was pacing around the cabin about two hours into the flight. She was walking a complete circuit around the plane and going through economy into business class. After about five trips through business class the FA told her she was not allowed to walk through the business class section. She started on a rant and said if she could not keep walking she would have a fit. The FA blocked her way and the woman began screaming at the top of her lungs. She screamed for about 15 minutes, the FAs kept her cornered in the space between the toilets. She began throwing her body around the cabin and beating on the walls. Doctors were paged. They dealt with her for a good 90 minutes before the situation settled.

I was hoping we would stop in Iceland and drop her off.

We got to JFK and 4 cops picked her up.

About two years ago on a weeknight I arrived at DFW on the last Continental (IAH-DFW) flight circa 10:00pm. Full plane and since it was a weeknight most passengers were tired from a long day's work.
As I leave I heard a commotion in the middle of the plane. Apparently someone had taken their case out of the overhead bin and it had fallen on another passenger. Shoving match ensued. Both pax were hauled off by FA to security.
Wrong places for shoving matches therefore include in an airplane!

Lotsa pax are shutheads and arseholes! We see that all the time.

But consider this: Most airplane seats were designed in the early 1950's when we all, as an average, were an inch shorter and weighed thirty pounds less. Since then, the seats haven't gotten any narrower (still usually six across -- at least Airbus adds about an inch per pax) but they've sure gotten closer together (pitch -- distance between seats -- has been decreased several inches!).

And then add this: these planes were designed to fly full maybe twenty days a year. Typical airline occupancies were 60% or so then, compared to 75-80% today. This means that except for Monday morning and the day before Thanksgiving, those middle seats were empty.

Computer yield management software now sells those last few seats that were our haven of sanity, the empty middle seat. Coach is now usually a torture sideways as well as footwise.

Most of us still keep our cool. Many air rage nuts are in first class, and drank too much. But the reality of torture in coach has certainly been a burden put on passengers -- and when we're delayed for hours or made to listen to multiple squalling infants or had our bodies imposed on by a smelly, inconsiderate seatmate, it's easy to understand why people are, er, less than perfectly polite.

No wonder rich folks and corporate execs are deserting more and more to private semi-charters and part-ownership deals.

Welcome to Air Greyhound. Leave the flying to us.

Just MO.

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"Service" should be a noun, not a verb.

Several years ago I worked at CO. I went to the daily operations meetings. In the almost 2years I attended there were very few incidents.
The two that stand out in my memory.
During the strike a FA paid for her tkt from LAX - HNl. When they were exactly 1/2 way she went to the FC lav, disrobed, entered the FC cabing and squatted and pooped in the middle of First Class. (as you can imagine a few vouchers were given out that day.)
The second one - PAX stood up in coach - read a few verses from his Bible then proceeded to charge the cockpit... it took several of the crew to restrain him.
The funny thing was- a few weeks later I had lunch with a friend who was on the flight. In fact she was the row behind him.
She said, the first clue was when he picked up his meal and walked back to the lav and locked himself in to eat. ha ha.
All in all - I agree with most postings. The news will blow a few incidents out of proportion.
Frank

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TANSTASFL - but if you work it right, FF miles comes pretty close.

The thing that really makes me mad is when someone reclines their seat all the way back. I get upset and just kick the seatback as often as I think I can get away with it. I also make a point of getting up a few times to go to the bathroom or get something out of the overhead. I would never do enough to come to blows over it.

Yesterday on my flight the person in front of me reclined his seatback and I noticed he was looking at me between the seats as he did it and saying something. I just shot him a look and then realized what he was saying. He was saying "Sir, do you mind if I recline my seat a little?". Needless to say, I felt stupid and said I didn't mind at all. Sometimes, when you expect all people to be jerks, you wind up being the jerk.

Scrog wrote:
The thing that really makes me mad is when someone reclines their seat all the way back. I get upset and just kick the seatback as often as I think I can get away with it.

Gee, what a nice adult response to kick someone's seatback just because they decide to recline it. I didn't know I needed to ask your permission.

Last year when flying from LAX-ATL on UA (their only daily nonstop), I was in 1C. About 3/4 of the way through the flight, I reclined my seatback only to have the guy in 2C push it back up. After a loud shouting match, the captain had to come out and tell the jerk in 2C to give it a rest. While you may not like it, I do have the right to recline my seat. I make an attempt to do it slowly, and often do it in 'stages' to get the person behind me used to the idea of it.

People like Scrogg are pathetic.

Do you know Scrog? He doesn't like to be reclined into. Neither do I. I will not start calling you names because we disagree. I will recline my seat sometimes depending on conditions and length of flight. Who needs to recline on a forty minute flight in coach with no seat pitch? You have a Right to Recline. I have a right to use my laptop, I must because they gave me a power plug for it. I have a right to eat, I must they gave me a seat tray. Sometimes our rights, a term I find overused conflict with others rights. Name calling does not add to the discussion.

Dallasflyer, if someone asked me what air rage was, I would say that the charming little exchange which you properly admonished is an example of where that starts.

I have witnessed Air Rage. It endangers the aircraft, the crew, and us. It starts ver often from fear and is exacerbated by alchohol and nicotine withdrawl. It can be kicked in by everyone demanding their "rights" and having no tolerance for others. I have watched businessmen behave abominably because they had been denied an upgrade.

To answer the point asked. It is defined as when passengers go beserk in flight for whatever reason or percieved cause. BA now carries restraiing devices, and will use them if the safety of the aircraft is jeapodised. They have not had to yet.

So far

Interesting exchange in the last 4 posts.

My own comments:

On reclining - Well, the passenger in front can, and so can I. Otherwise why would they let the things recline at the touch of a button if it requires intervention from the person behind? Having said that, yes, it is annoying when the person in front reclines fully in one sudden move.

On getting up from the seat: Here is a situation that does annoys me. Why does the guy behind have to get up pulling the seat in front? I do so by pushing away from my own seat thus not disturbing the person in front. When the person behind me gets up forcefully pulling my seat, I get ready for the comeback: when I see him coming back, without leaning my back against the seat, I keep the recline button pushed. If he comes back and tries to seat back using the back of my seat as support.... well, the situation can get a bit fun. I just react as surprised as he may be for him having pulled back my seat. The one situation where i would not mind and I understand is when the person behind is a senior citizen or somehow obviously weak person, but for a young strong person, I fail to understand why they have to yank my seat and awake me. Afterall, when flying F or B internationally the seats are so far appart that the same person would not have the choice of pulling the seat in front. Why do they do it when flying coach?

I agree that air rage is a problem and that people should be able to recline. I also should be able to use a laptop and if the person in front fully reclines in coach or first on domestic AA then the laptop may not fit on the tray reasonably.

My biggest concern was that when confronted with a post that was not agreeable a FTer attacked the poster personally. We can argue air rage, which I to have seen in a more minor form. We can talk about reclining seats and all our rights without attacking each other and name calling, especially when it seemed to me to be completely unprovoked.

If I am mistaken they I apolligize to any and all effected.

I have made it a habit to politely ask the person behind me if they objected to my reclining of my seat, and they are almost always thankful. I have yet for someone to say NO!! to me :eek: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/redface.gif. I don't know what I'll do with myself if that ever happens. However, I did have only one (out of maybe 100 flights) say just a little bit. A little bit consented into all the way (no smarta$$ comments please http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif) back when she realized that the seat pitch was more than average on this particular aircraft. She was also thankful. Another was so thankful, he offered his 1st class meal which I didn't take because I had my own lunch. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif I don't get mad when the person in front of me reclines their seat. The function is there for a reason, and I have no right to cuss, shout, kick the seat, make a complete idiot of myself, etc. over something so **** ridiculous. If someone does, I might think of them as a security hazard and report that person to the lead FA in charge as such.

Erik.

I'm no medical expert, but probably (maybe) because he has a spinal condition or knee injury that prevents him/her from getting up from a seat using the full support of the body parts without some kind of pulling support. You might see a certain pull device in a hospital room attached to the ceiling that the patient grabs when moving around in his/her bed. This is a good question that I might post in another forum for medical questions.

Erik.

That would be a valid reason, but it happens too often for me to believe that such is the reason for so many people doing it.

Totally agree that this happens too often, even flying in C class (how the pax behind me manages to *still* grab my seat when getting up in C class is beyond me). I would say that many pax in Y grab the seat in front of them when getting up. Why? I don't know. Unless the pax does have some sort of physical ailment as mentoned above, I see no reason for it - I think it's just lack of courtesy.

Only near air rage experience in years of flying was MIA-CDG on Pan Am (continuing service to FRA and TLV). The pax in the row in front of us insisted she had reserved the seat next to her (Y class 747) and made a big stink when a young German couple arrived to settle into their assigned seats (thus depriving RagePax her "reserved" empty seat).

She was very agressive, disruptive and rude; she started to make derogatory comments about Germans and Germany ... what fun.

The purser arrived and very sweetly asked RagePax for her second boarding pass ( http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif ). Unable to produce one, the purser told RagePax to sit back and enjoy the completely sold out flight and that the next time she wanted an empty seat next to her she should buy one or fly in a different class of service.

RagePax was still very agitated as we took off and the insults continued. The German couple kept their cool but were understandably disturbed. At cruising altitude, RagePax started rocking violently in her reclined seat which disturbed my traveling companion seated directly behind her. Being French and not mastering English all that well, he gave her a bit of a tongue lashing in french which actually calmed her down. We then endured three hours of the worst turbulence I have ever experienced (all FAs strapped in, people throwing up, etc) - RagePax was so frightened she luckily just shut up.

Pan Am shut down shortly thereafter. I think this is one of the worst flights I've ever had.

i've said this on other threads, but will repeat. i would like to see the a/l's show a pax courtesy video along w/ the safety stuff. it should contain items like 'pls don't recline seat during meals' pls recline seat slowly' pls don't grab seat back in front of you to get up' pls don't put knees against seat back in front of you shake it' etc etc etc.

I do my best to not crowd the person behind me. If there is nobody in the back of me, I recline the seat at all times (except for takeoff & landing). If there is someone behind me, I keep the seat up during the meal service & ask the person behind me if I can recline the seat some. On occasion, I may politely ask the person in front of me if he/she could keep the seat up during the meal time & tell them it is OK with me to recline any other time. (most are greatful that I ask nicely) I do my best to be polite to anyone on various matters & it has done wonders for all concerned. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I think some of the best examples of AirRage can be seen on SouthWest airlines where they don't make specific seat assignments.

I was on a four hour Nashville to LAX flight once. I was ill and needed to sit on an aisle seat so I could get up and go to the bathroom frequently.

When I boarded the plane (with my assigned boarding group) I noticed that someone had gotten on the plane beforehand and put down several bags, backpacks, etc. in the last 8 or so remaining aisle seats.

It was obvious someone was "saving" seats by putting things in them...

So I picked up one of the bags, moved it to the seat next to me, and sat down.

I was approached by very large man (He was black and I happen to be white). He immediately started getting in my face for moving his bag and saying that I thought I could just "take" his seat because he was black.

I told him that I needed an aisle seat, that he wasn't allowed to save seats, and that there was no way I could have known what race he by just looking at a backpack sitting in a seat.

The other passengers on the plane were starting to look terrified because this was a flight to LA that was just a few months after the Rodney King riots.(Ironically, I was flying to LA to work on a project related to black history!?)

I told him he needed to stop changing the subject (to race) and back to the issue of the seat if he wanted to continue to talk to me and I refused to get out of the seat.

A FA intervened and the guy continued to argue with her. She told him that he was not allowed to save seats and that he needed to sit down and calm down or he would be removed from the plane.

He sat down and his friends came on board. They all started complaining about me (loud enough so that I would hear) for several minutes. After about 10 minutes everybody settled down though and everything was fine.

Anyway, that's the only AirRage I've witnessed.

Safe flying,
star

I want to say that I respect everyone's comments so far and that I was just stating how I feel. I always try to go by the Golden Rule (I know it sounds corny). Even if the person in front of me has his seat reclined all the way back I will not recline my seat if I am in coach and someone is seated behind me.

As far as rights go, I have the right to rearrange my legs when I feel like it. I have the right to get something out of the overhead when I want to. I think I have the right to pass gas if I need to, but I certainly wouldn't do it while sitting in an airplane seat.

One thing I didn't mention is that this particular flight was 20 minutes long. When the person asked my permission I really figured he must have a medical problem and didn't mind at all his reclining.

On the next leg of my trip I made it a point of getting up and walking the aisles to see how many people were reclining their seats. I do this on a lot of flights to see if my theory is correct. VERY FEW people recline at all and even fewer recline all the way.

Finally, I've been called crazy, stupid and many other names in the past, but this is the first time I have been called pathetic. As always, I admit to being all of the above.

It doesn't matter how many people recline on a plane. Anyone has the right to recline as much as the seat would go.

You can be pouty if you want; you can get up and go to the bathroom and check your overhead bag if you want; you just have to keep your mouth shut because the other person totally has the right to recline the max whether the flight is 20 minutes or 20 hours long.

If he asks, that's nice but not necessary.

A quote from the above:

"During the strike a FA paid for her tkt from LAX - HNl. When they were exactly 1/2 way she went to the FC lav, disrobed, entered the FC cabing and squatted and pooped in the middle of First Class."

Now this really is a new concept in crudeness. Oh please tell me that she was attractive, at least.

re The reclination of seats:

There's been no mention as to whether the incidents are in F or Y. It's bad enough in F to have your knees squashed, and even worse in Y (but at least there you have little expectation of comfort).

I'm almost always in F as a result of the upgrades that come after several million miles. Even there, I've gotten so fed up with people that do a full quick recline immediately after takeoff that I always try for a bulkhead seat so I won't have to deal with anybody in front of me. And, while there, I never recline more than an inch if the seat behind me is occupado.

That leaves me with another reason to question the courtesy of my fellow passengers. Specifically, in the bulkhead, all of my luggage needs to go overhead. Despite the requests of the flight attendants to first use the space underneath the seat in front of you, it's amazing how many people automatically put both of their bags in the overhead without any consideration for those of us in the bulkhead and/or boarding late.

I have seen dozens of such incidents over the last two decades as I am one of those ramp guys you see hovering outside the cabin door as you exit. We all know what is happening when the usual crowd of agents, wheelchair people, rampers and mechanics are joined by a phalanx of uniformed police officers nervously, but discreetly fingering their Pepper Sprayers, usually accompanied by a taser-wielding sergeant.

What follows ninety-five percent of the time is this. As the cabin door is opened the officers move into the aircraft, the passengers having been told to remain seated. Within minutes, one or two disgruntled passengers are led out peacefully by the police. Sometimes they are in custody, sometimes not. Then all returns to normal, the presence of the police having settled whatever happened without further incident.

In the remaining one out of twenty cases, however, all heck breaks loose; there is screaming, shouting and a wrestling match involving the officers. I have seen people tasered, batoned and pepper sprayed right in the doorway of the aircraft. Without exception, the officers involved attempted to defuse the initial contact by being low key, but to no avail. Several confrontations were so severe that the airline ground crew had to help battle the instigator(s) until further help arrived.

Officers have told me there is often little follow-up in terms of prosection, a situation exacerbated by the ability to arrest a person in California (I have worked LAX, SMF and currently SJC) for "drunk in public" and be released a few hours later without further charges (an easy out). I would like to see some high profile prosecutions.