Business Class Vs. Coach-International Flights
 

This is my first time to FLYERTALK. I am a pretty extended traveler within the U.S. but not abroad. Now I find that my husband and I will be making a few trips over to visit our son (in the Air Force) in Germany. I could probably handle a coach seat for the extended flying time but my husband will most likely have a problem. The problem is the GREAT difference in price of coach versus first class. Someone suggested Business Class instead but I can't get any clear answers about the difference between coach and business classes. Some have told me that Business Class is a big improvement over Coach and others have said not to spend the money as there is very little difference! I would like to get information ahead of time and be prepared. I would appreciate the time and feedback of anyone that has experience/knowledge in this area. Thanks for your help.

In general, business class between the US and Europe is a VAST improvement over coach. It's also vastly better than domestic first class. Business class within europe is a different matter -- that will have the same seats as coach class w/i europe, but they give you better food and don't put people in middle seats.

However, Business Class to europe is also very expensive, compared with coach. New York to London in coach can usually be had for under $500 (or under $800 in peak season). Contrast this with the business class fare which is over $5,000. Of course, this is still cheaper than first class, which runs over $8,500 on the same trip.

If you guys are experienced domestic travelers, you might want to consider using your miles to upgrade from coach to business. Most airlines let you do this for 40,000-50,000 miles round-trip US to Europe. In terms of the dollar-value of miles, upgrading premium tickets will almost always get you the most bang for your buck.

business class is about the same as domestic first. we normally get coach tickets & use miles to upgrade.

I can't imagine anyone saying there is NO difference between C and B. I mostly fly AA, and it's like night and day between C and B.

The primary benefits are more seat room, leg room and much better food. Depending on the airline, the entertainment choices are much better as well.

I'm sure there will be a lot more people chiming in about this one.

Flip

I also agree there is a big difference between coach and business on international flights. I believe the service, room, food and entertainment are so much better - plus you get your own bathroom http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif . I've never paid for the upgrade but use miles or upgrade certificates the airlines issue (which is a great benefit from AA). I don't use miles/certs for domestic travel upgrades unless it is a connection to an international flight. I don't see the value as much for these.

Anyone who says that there is no difference between domestic F and Int'l Biz has not flown internationally in 20 years. That simple.

Differences, legroom, seat widt, entertainment, food, general service. Average Domestic seat pitch 36" (sometimes as little at 34"), average int'l seat pitch 50" (sometimes as much as 60"). Case closed

If using miles to upgrade from coach to business, be careful which fare class you buy in coach. On some (most?) airlines you can only upgrade certain coach fares with miles.

Definite big difference between Coach and Business, as all have eloquently related above.

IF and I mean IF, you can sleep in a mildly reclining position, flying the US-Europe portion as an overnight flight in Coach can be cost-effective. When you are wide awake on the return (usually late morning flights), having the extra elbow room, service, etc. in Business definitely is advantageous.

If you don't have any upgrades, you need to make some fast friends who do! If you have upgrades, but no significant status with that airline, its tough to get off the waitlist.
If you have enough miles for an award ticket, be prepared to be VERY flexible in your travel dates.

There is big difference between coach and business class on international routes. Also, international business class is much superior than domestic First. Wider seat, great leg room and not to mention much better service (and meal selection) are available in international business. If you have miles to upgrade to business, don't think twice to upgrade.

Other advantages of J (or F) can include avoiding the herds during check-in, access to departure and/or arrivals lounges, expedited baggage handling (theoretically, at least), less competition for overhead space, or access to expedited customs and immigrations lines, among others.

[This message has been edited by wigstheone (edited 06-26-2001).]

You might want to consider looking into Delta's BizElite or Continental's BizFirst product.

My mother has flown twice to Frankfurt via Delta in the past year. She paid the coach fare and I used 40k Delta points each time to upgrade her to BizElite. There's a noticeable difference between a 3-class business seat and the 2-class BizElite/BizFirst seat.

Most coach seat pitch is at 31 inches unless in AA's MRTC or UA's E+ with about 34-35 inches.

Most Business class seat pitch is 48-55 inches with seats that recline substantially and with legrests, too.

Frankly, the differences between Coach and Business are HUGE! The differences between Business and First are less significant.

welcome janicem to FT.

flying coach internationally is not the end of the world, but it can be challenging to squeeze into the seat if you are tall or weigh more than 200 pounds (obviously this is a big generalization).

if you cannot afford to buy a business class ticket (and not many of us can or are willing to -- it really is a lot of money to spend for a few hours on a plane) then your best options are to buy a coach ticket and try to get your hands on upgrade vouchers or lots of frequent flier miles that can then be used to upgrade tickets to business.

Although the airlines (and some of the folks here on FT) frown on this practice (I personally would not do this but then again I can (and have many times) suffer through 20+hours of coach if I have to), there are ways to BUY upgrade vouchers (for example, see eBay), and certain airlines (such as American and United) will allow you to use these upgrades on practically any fare. The caveat here is that the airlines can revoke your frequent flier status (or maybe even worse) if they catch you buying these certs. But this kind of thing appears to happen all the time (for now, at least)

The other option is to get your hands on more miles. There are many ways to do this. And this site is the place to learn about those ways. Right now, the best airline to accumulate miles without flying is American. Check out that board and you'll read about the current 20K for 20 partners promo (very doable for a modest out of pocket investment), the 10K bonus signup for applying for a Citibank World Mastercard for $50, and, of course, I should not forget that you can buy (and donate) food for a lot of miles. Once you get these miles, you may be able to upgrade your coach tickets to business... Hope this helps.

Domestic and international coach are similar. Domestic first is noticeably better. International business is better than that. How much better depends on the airline: those like Delta that have a hybrid business/first class tend to be better than those that offer a separate first class as their premier product. International first class, where available, tends to include things like caviar and beds - nice, but you're only going to be there for eight hours or so!

I concur with buying an inexpensive economy ticket and upgrading with miles, if that works for you. If it doesn't, some airlines are extending the multiple-price approach (lower fares for advance purchase, Saturday night stay, etc.) to the front cabin(s). Also, if you have or can get an AmEx Platinum card ("real Platinum," not a platinum-colored Optima) you can get two business-class tickets for the price of one on several airlines.

You're going to Germany, but I can't tell where you are starting.

Business class tickets E-US rt are frequently much less than US-E rt. If you are making the same rt each time, get to Europe either with a rt booked with a max time return, or a one way, and begin starting your trip in Germany.

LU & SR allow upgrade of almost every paid coach fare with miles.

LU - you mean LH ?

If you are flying to Germany it really makes sense to go Business Class. It is well worth using your miles for an upgrade. It my opinion there is a BIG difference from coach.

Flying country to country within Europe is a different story. Some planes are only one class, like the shuttle.

I'm sorry but I really fail to see the logic in this statement. There is absolutely no simmilarirty between business class and domestic first. Domestic first is superior to business class WITHIN Europe but the service, entertainment, comfort that business class offers on Intercontinetal flights blows the pants off domestic first class. I would ask you to consider backing up your statement, because I am curious as what lead you to say this. I respectfully disagree with your statement, but mean no offense personally.

Just did a search in expedia from washington to frankfurt and the least business class ticket costs $2500. I would recommend BA's world traveller plus which is a big improvement over economy (its a new class between economy and business). it has wider seats, individual LCD screens etc. check on BA website for dimensions. the only problem is that you might have to change planes at LHR.

I flew AA business class this month to RDU to Sao Paulo and the return trip in coach. All the minor benefits, better food, better entertainment, first to board, etc. is not as critical as the most important aspect of the trip...the ability to stay comfortable strapped in one spot for an extended period of time. Whether you want to stay upright, doing a moviefest, reading or working, or stay reclined for sleep (my preference), the difference in the c vs. b factors that are important to you should be weighed vs. the cost to upgrade. For me, the legroom, seating, noise-cancelling headphones and the ability of seatmates to move without disturbing me are key and worth trying to upgrade. I've flown AA, DL and US business class to Europe in the last 3 years. For sleeping, my US Envoy seats to FRA reclined to 160 degrees on the Airbus, 180 degrees in first class. Not a substantial difference between business and first, but a huge difference between those seats and the upright sleeping position in coach.

I'm surprised no one brought up the options of buying through a ticket consolidator. I know that this opens another can of worms as some tickets may not earn miles, but it's another option. Discounts can easily hit 60% off the regular airline fares, search the web for consolidators in your area, or even ask your travel agent to direct you to one. If they're decent, they will do so.

Good luck

Buying a ticket through a consolidator probably does mean not using FF miles either through accrual or upgrading. But I'd like to hear if anyone has used a consolidator and been able to coordinate with their FF program. It probably happens.

Consolidator tickets are generally bought in bulk at huge discounts and don't offer miles since they are not "published fares." However, there are anecdotal reports of people giving FF numbers at check-in and getting miles on consolidator tickets, so it's worth a try.

I've used Travelselect.com as a consolidator for business class tickets and have gotten my FF miles on American and Delta. The busienss class segments are booked into D class, which may be a "published fare."

You can also try Icelandair, which I think fly to Germany. If you're in the D.C. area, they fly from BWI several times a week (also fom JFK, BOS, MSP and MCO) and offer confirmed seats in business class for the price of full fare coach. Thier business class is not as lavish as some others, but it does feature wider seats with more legroom (akin to domestic first class), better meals, priority check-in, baggage ahndling and lounge access. You also have to make a stopover in Keflavik, Iceland, but this is rarely for more than one hour. You can get FF miles on TWA, which will eventually be added to your AA account.

Also, it is quite common to be upgraded to Upper Class from Premium Economy on Virgin Atlantic and, if not, you still get a wider seat with more legroom than coach.

could somebody help bring me up to speed. I need some of these defined...
domestic coach
domestic first ..OK I know those two

What are the differences with these:
business class
business first
business elite
international first

I thought these last ones were all refering to the same thing. For example, I look at the description of the 777 on Continental's website. I see coach and "first class" seats. Nothing more.... What is this business class if it is not first class?? Thanks for the Help.

The whole thing boils down to international airlines competing for business. They all want to offer something unique to the premium (read: most profitable) passenger. Some do this by trying for the most luxurious first class they can create. Some want to offer more luxury for a business class fare. And some rely mostly on people traveling to their home countries, many of whom also have an ethnic affinity to it. Any of these can work. With that in mind:

International first: first class on an international flight. What makes the distinction between it and domestic first relevant is that first class on international flights tends to be fancier than first class on domestic flights. It has things like seats that turn into flat beds and caviar. If international first was like domestic first, there wouldn't be room for an intermediate business class. As it is, it's so different that an airline can create something between economy and it that's better than domestic first.

Business class: an intermediate class between economy (coach) and first class. Typically found on international and some other long-distance flights where first-class accommodations are particularly luxurious. It attracts business people whose companies will pay for it but not for first. It also gets frequent flyers (like me) who buy economy tickets and upgrade with miles. This is a high-value use of miles, if you value them at what the ticket would have cost. (Whether or not the traveler would have bought the more expensive ticket, if he/she had to pay for it, is a separate issue.)

Business First, Business Elite, and a few others: individual airlines' names for their business/first class hybrid. Their aircraft typically have two classes of service, not three. These airlines claim that their business class offers more than most business class cabins at the same price. There is some truth to that, though it doesn't come up to the luxury and service that most true first-class services offer.

Janicem, welcome on board !

As I made the trip from Europe and back many many times, I agree definitevely with everybody here: There is a huge difference, but rate is really more then a concern.

A lot of us are buiness becasue of upgrades, either by miles, or by coupons; If you are a new flyer, forget the coupons (you need more then 3 return trip, and some airlines have cancelled this opportunity even).
My opinion is that the travel FROM Europe is OK in coach (we travel during daytime), but the return trip (for me) from US to Europe is a real pain in coach:
YOU JUST CAN'T SLEEP. There is no room, there is noise, the night is very short.