I have to differ with you snake. The working stiff govt employees following the book are in coach. There are exceptions for the top people if "security" conditions warrant it. Also, many of the top congressmen are FF in their own right and use the FF benefits to upgrade, seemingly with no regard to the 14 hour rule in the FTR.

Finally, what you don't see is the bill for transport by military plane and helicopter...to lots of congressmen and political/non career govt officials. How much is the cost of a helicopter transport from the Pentagon to a nearby base instead of driving? Staffers on the hill protect the military transport squadron accounts cuz they use them too!


[This message has been edited by Jim67094 (edited 04-02-2001).]

Maybe thats why Greenspan, Kennedy, Albright etc are not often seated in row 39J .. they must claim it is a security risk to the nation for them to eat coach food. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

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~ Glen ~

Athletes, entertainers, speakers, etc., often have first class flying privileges in their contracts.

I've flown with my congressman (George Miller) and senator (Barbara Boxer) sitting across from me in business class. Of course, didn't have the nerve to bother them to ask if they upgraded or paid for their ticket in business.

I remember the flight with Barbara Boxer. My dad was sitting between me and her, as I had upgraded both of us to business, and we were in a center section. He noticed a lot of people were coming up talking with her, and commented to me that she must be someone important. I told him who she was, as he had no idea. I suspect a lot of people sitting on planes with their own representatives would not know who they are.

Sure, lots of Congressional Representatives and Senators sit in first. They are all top tier elites from commuting back to the district (or state) nearly every weekend. I assure you, however, that the government does not purchase first class tickets for them.

On a UA flight IAD-SEA when the agent was processing upgrades, he said that no one except passengers McDerrmott and Wald had a chance for an upgrade (DAM A320 transcons!!!). Sure enought McDermott turned out to be the Silver Fox of Socialized health care in America, Jim McDermott (D-WA). I've also had a conversation when I ended up coincidentally sitting next to my former employer Sen. Max Baucus (D-MT) ORD-DCA about how his personal secretary tracks and manages his upgrades for him.

I DID have another former boss who visited Africa via military transport while I was in her employ. She did not enjoy the experience AT ALL and ended up purchasing (out of her own pocket) a business class ticket on KLM/NW for the flight home.

As for Greenspan specifically, he is Chairman of the Federal Reserve System. As an employee of an "Independent Federal Agency" he is still subject to the strict rules place on all federal employees every bit as much as the administrator of the General Services administration or say the National Archives is.

OTOH, some agencies (E.g. Department of Transportation) have Government-owned Gulfstreams at their service and The Fed may be one of these...

My only paid first class ticket came about a year and a half ago from SJC to SLC. This was a ticket that was purchased two days before the flight and for some very strange reason, the first class ticket was actually less expensive than a coach ticket -- go figure.

I was quite amused to be sitting there in first class and see Craig Barrett, CEO of Intel, get on the plane and head back to coach!

--John

The short answer is, "if you have to ask, then you can't afford it". Which applies here. There are lots of people who buy F because that's their way of life. Even if they are elites in FF programs, they wouldn't know what their perks were, or care enough to play the upgrade game. Time is money, and in their case money buys comfort and access to an airline seat when they want it, on the carrier they want to fly. [And then there are those who also have their own private airplanes...]

As for politicians, the argument cuts both ways. Yes, it is good to see our representatives in the back cabin hob-nobbing with those of us who vote for them. I have flown ex-DCA on many shuttles and sat near Representatives and Senators. And ex-YOW and found the occasional MP in the back cabin with me. But these are short flights of less than 2 hours. On those longer transcons, why should they not fly the front cabin? They live 18-hour days on our behalf, and a bit of space and respite should not be denied. Do you like flying transcon in the back cabin? I certainly prefer to do it in the front cabin. If I can afford to pay for it [or rather if my client can afford to] I do so, if not, I try for an upgrade. So after a long week in Washington, Canberra or Ottawa, travelling home for a weekend of meetings with constituents [and a few hours with the family] deserves 4 or 5 hours in the front cabin to either get some work done, relax and read, or even just watch the movie, have a drink and a modertately edible dinner.

F-class fares are high, but as noted, only marginally more than full-fare Y. Considering the United States has several million millionaires, there are lots of people for whom buying a full F ticket is both normal and not a pinch on the pocket book. Even if it is not in their contracts.

Funny, with all my flights mostly transcon and transoceanic, I NEVER see any easily recognized Government officials! They fly at different times. Or maybe DC National airport!

What do you think it costs us for each congressperson per year with all their perks and 'other' expenses? For example, Hillary's Manhattan office as a start! Then there is security, healthclubs, haircuts, food service, clothing allowences, TRAVEL, etc etc. All under 'job related' expenses. Of course, much more, that I couldn't even dream up. OH YES, those get 'familiar tours' to foreign courtries, etc. After adding everyting up, you would get a tidy amount, that they would not want you to know about!

I used to fly weekly out of DCA, and recall one flight where Senator John Glenn boarded right before the door closed and sat in coach. F was already full. Incidentally, most Washingtonians far prefer DCA to IAD, which may affect how the changes in service to DCA will play out.

In Boston, the agency that operates Logan "arranges" VIP treatment for noteworthy individuals: and this includes an upgrade-request call to the airline. The airline normally offers Massport-designated VIPs an upgraded seat at no charge.

I now regularly pay the top fare (J or business) which allows me to fly first on UA as part of the Mexican Hat Dance http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif. Otherwise, I do not pay business or first class.

My company pays for FC for all employees if flights are 4 hours or longer if only 2 class of service. Its business class for non officers if there are more than 2 class of services. I fully expect to see them do away with this before the summer is over.

[This message has been edited by jamflyer (edited 04-02-2001).]

ROADRUNNER

I'm not sure where you getting your information about the costs associated with Senators and Representatives.

To be sure, members accumulate significant costs for travel, but mostly that is for travel to and from their home states or districts.

As for international travel, members do a fair amount of that too. However, last May I was on a flight with the Senate Minority Leader and another Senator, and they were sitting in coach with the rest of us.

In addition, Senator's do not recieve clothing allowances, free haircuts or food service. As far as security, the Capitol Police force is quite large (around 1800 I think). However, the Capitol and surrounding buildings are at serious risk to all sorts of security problems--as evidenced by the shooting in the Capitol a couple of years ago.

While security is tight at the Capitol, only a select group of members actually have full time security assigned to them (e.g., the Speaker of the House). For the rest, when they leave the complex they leave the security behind.

As for what all of this costs, most of that information is readily available to the public. There are publications from both the House and Senate that list nearly all office expenses and salaries. This information is not widely reported because its mostly routine expenditures such as office supplies.

What Members of Congress really get in perks is all about the ego. Let's face it, people really kiss their behinds. And the Capitol complex is truly a city unto itself, where members are king. For example, you'll never see a member walk through a metal detector, and of course they have their own elevators as well. But one thing to keep in mind is that most of the members were powerful and/or wealthy (implied power) long before they ever came to Congress. That doesn't mean they don't take their jobs seriously, but it does mean they are accustomed to a certain lifesytle.

Members of Congress are allowed to save frequent flyer points and use them for their own purposes, run of the mill Federal Gov't workers are not allowed to.

Jay

Back to the original question, I often buy and fly F class for several reasons:

--it is the only way you KNOW you will get and KEEP your upgrades (think of equip changes after check-in)
--I enjoy the comfort and treatment offfered and am willing to pay for it
--I get 50% or more miles towards international premium tickets, which we all know have a higher per-mile value
--it is often only $80 or so more than a domestic transcon Y full fare ticket

Those are my reasons, but I also see how it is a lot more expensive than discount Y fares that can often be upgraded with pretty good assurance.

The Canadian rule for government flying:

For public servants, Treasury Board rules apply:

J class is authorized for flights: 1) over 9 hours nonstop; 2) over 12 hours with stops, but no deplaning; 3) over 14 hours total travel time in one day.

Senior Managers and Governor-in-Council appointments (e.g. judges, tribunal members) may be authorized for J class on flights over 90 minutes where there is an operational need. (signing authority is ADM or higher in most departments). J class is never authorized for flights under 90 minutes.

F travel is Ministerial authorization only, with the exception of diplomatic couriers.

MPs and Senators are governed by Board of Internal Economy rules. Each MP from outside the NCR has 50 J return trips to the constituency each year. Unlike public servants who are prohibited from collecting miles for offical travel, MPs are required to do so, and use the miles for official travel.

Ministerial travel outside of constituency visits will generally be J, over 90 minutes, but my also be by CF Challenger, in some circumstances.

PM and GG always travel by CF aircraft.