Ethics question
 

Let me start by saying I know this is wrong. Second, I would like to point out that this is not my first flyertalk post. So we can all dispense with the Welcome to Flyertalks. My question here is not whether it is wrong, but would you do it?

If you had access to someone's frequent flier account and all of the following were true, would you use their miles.

Assumptions:

1. The miles expire in a few months.
2. The owner does not plan on flying the airline in question or in any way earning miles or using the miles before they expire.
3. The owner is oblivious to the status of their account or even if or how many miles they have.
4. You are not related to the owner of the miles.
5. If you bring the frequent flier miles to their attention the owner will still not use them, nor will they gift them to anyone (not just you) - in other words the miles will go to waste if not used.

Given the above, would you use their miles for your own benefit?

Let the discussion commence...

Airlines assume a certain percentage of potential awards will go unclaimed. Therefore, this is not a "victimless" act. It's wrong.

Signed,

Randy Cohen's Alter Ego

Ethically I wouldn't do it, since I wouldn't want anyone to access my personal accounts.

I would make a monetary offer to this person to see if they would do it on my behalf. If they don't then they are just flushing money down the toilet.

SacFitz

No. It's wrong. Just outright wrong. :td:

If you know this person personally, I would ask to buy all there miles at a discount.

Of course not.... I would never STEAL from someone I know... that is so wrong.

So, what is the ethical part of the question? :rolleyes:

I don't see how you could use someone else's miles w/o stealing their identity.

I'm racking my brain, and I can't come up with a situation when I'd say this is ethically okay.

What if you found out that the same person also had a dormant bank account? For whatever reason, you have their password, you know the person has forgotten about the account, and there are a few bucks in there that the bank will eventually take in the way of fees if the money isn't withdrawn. Would you withdraw it for yourself and think that was okay?

Can I ask...were you once related to this person? Not that it changes anything...

Most of the ethical questions posted here are in the "gray area" where I see both sides. I can't see any other angle on this one...

I'd make them an offer. If they refused the offer (and didn't bargain any further), then I'd do nothing else and let the miles expire.

So, is this a duplicate account you created :eek:

Why not use your regular one

The member posting this thread has received a permanent timeout, as they've admitted explicitly that the username is a duplicate - a violation of the terms of service of Flyertalk.

Please let's not focus on the member asking the question anymore.

If you wish, feel free to comment on the question which I read as: is it ok to steal miles that will otherwise expire unused? If folks want to discuss this substantively, we can leave the thread open -- but let's not go off-topic to discuss the member initiating the post any further.

Thanks!
Gary
aka gleff
MilesBuzz and Delta moderator

I guess I'm confused here. . .person who is no longer allowed to post on FT is posting and asking us for our opinions about stealing somebody else's miles. . .

Ethics? This thread (OP question) has none imo.

No. Just because it's not being used doesn't make it OK to take it. That said, I would do whatever I could to talk the person into making use of the miles. Perhaps they can gift it to me, or the person can donate it to a non-profit. If I had a car that wasn't running, and I wasn't planning on getting it fixed, but I kept it in my garage, I will be extremely upset if someone came and stole my car. Yes, even if I wasn't planning on getting it fixed. My response if that happens, would be, "Why didn't you just ASK me? I would have given it to you for free, or bartered for something. Instead, you took something that wasn't yours to take."

No. It's wrong. You know it. So why would you do it.

Ethical answer:

No way. This is stealing. You know that it's wrong. If you were honestly wondering whether or not it was, you wouldn't have been concerned about posting anonymously, so you answered your own question already. Try to get the miles the honest way - by offering an exchange, guilt-tripping them, or annoying them about it until they give them to you to shut you up. The fact that you have their account info leads me to believe that you are or were related to said mielage waster. If so, that'll probably come back to bite you in the a$$ at some point.

Pragmatic answer in case you opt for the miles-stealing anyway:

OK - so lets say you have a really good reason to hate this person and are just out to get them - I'm not sanctioning it, but we've all probably opted for petty vigilantism at some point or another. Objectively, I don't think that it is pragmatic to grab the miles. To use them on an award for yourself, you would be entering your name and personal information into the records at some point. That means that if they ever did find out, they can trace it back to you. So ethics aside, I think you'd get caught at some point. (Unless of course there is someone else you also hate and you get the ticket in their name unbeknowst to the first person and then tell the person whose miles they were that the second person you hate stole them and thereby pit them against eachother. They can't trace this back to you since you had the foresight to book online from a internet cafe PC where they can't trace the IP or login back to you. Then that's workable. But still really wrong. Beautifully wrong.)

peace,
~Ben~

<<<Disclaimer: This opinions expressed in this message are my own. My scruples stepped out of the room after the first paragraph and my Jiminy Cricket does not approve of or acknowledge the contents herein. I do not encourage others to bend or break the law since nobody ever wants to get sued or sent to the pokey. No warranties expressed or implied. Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. Happy Fun Ball may cause vertigo.>>>

I have noticed that, in general, whenever anyone asks whether it's ethically acceptable to do something, the answer is always no. If you have to ask, it's probably not OK.

And no, I wouldn't even think of doing it.

The metaphors with "money in bank" or a "non-working car" are not applicable to this case because the miles expire. If you wake up tomorrow the car will remain in the garage, money will be in the bank, but the airlines will take the miles away. So by not acting in this case, you are only helping the airline reduce their liability.

That said, what somebody does with his miles is his business. You can reason with the friend to give it to you for something in exchange,or give it to charity or buy magazine subscriptions to your local school or library. Taking his miles without his consent is pure and simple thievery.

while i tend lean to the abnormally moral side when it comes to ethics,i think my only question on this one would be...was the owner of the points in question a bin hog? if so, then yes'd I'd take his friggin' points ;)

just kidding...i think....let me get back to you on that...i need to have a chat with my moral compass....

come on people, think out of the box!
 

Ahh, easy to figure out right away!

This one makes me think of ONE thing where it can be considered less than just plain wrong, and almost way right!:


I ain’t saying that's what it is, but come on people, if the X was a real jerk and you had a horrid break up, then this could be a good thing!

Here is the example:

Someone dear to me, let's call him George, did have such a problem. His X wife, let's call her Elaine, was a real loser. She didn't even ever know what miles were when they were together, and certainly never appreciated all the tickets he got the family when scrambling around to do business or leisure travel. This Elaine character was snobby, unforgiving, unhappy, unloving, and just plain stupid about a lot of other things that would obviously make decent reasons for the break up.

But George is a good man who simply made the wrong choices in his life for those few years these two were together. He tried and tried to make it work and when they had a child, well, he did all the work to bring that kid along (and of course, set him up with a little FF account or three as well!)

Anyway, when he finally figured out he should end it all (and found her doing the nasty with his x-best friend from school anyway) he realized that he had been the one to set up all the family airline miles accounts!

And he had the PINs and all the other info too.

Now they weren’t some wealthy or well-to-do Hollywood tabloid couple that some hot shot lawyer from Hollywood knew enough or cared enough to include some 1,500,000 Delta miles into their divorce, no, instead it was merely about alimony or some other possessions, and George gladly dealt with this.

He is done with Elaine, but man, was the woman a piece of work! To this day the whole thing haunts him and yet he does everything right when it comes to paying the bill and taking care of the kid...

But he has access to those miles. She doesn’t even care to know what they are or how to use a PC!

So he uses them.
Who will ever really know in their case?
Does the airline need to know?
Does the X need to know?
I sure would if it happened to me!

...and so should any of you divorcees out there feeling a bit burned once and a while. As long as they don’t know about it, it certainly IS right, in terms of the highest rule on earth: The ones set forth by the HEART!

I seriously doubt Elaine is reading this now. She was a Russian bride who just wanted the green card anyway! You gonna tell on me? No, you are not.

Sounds like a divorce to me, as well.

But here's a new wrinkle ... if the couple married in a community property jurisdiction, such as in Californnia or South Africa the miles would be deemed to be held in community. I believe it's incumbent upon each party not to waste the community assets ...

However, this is a large issue to any FT'er and it is hard to believe it would slip the mind of an FT'er going through a divorce. Certainly my property settlement dealt with this very same scenario and I enjoyed free first class travel during TWA's last years.

But I certainly did not rub my ex's nose it it ...

The only approach I would counsel is wait for the other party to make a request you are able to grant and ask for the quid pro quo.

Part of ownership of property is being able to do what you wish with the property. No one should infringe on that right just because the property will be "wasted".

if the x was a jerk and knows nothing about miles, and you set him or her up with all of them anyway and he or she really screwed up your life and you hate her and you feel she or he owes you and you have a chance to do this, I still say do it!

If it is a friend who has no time or inclination to work on a soon to expire account and you have been pushing him to do it but he still wont, and then you go in and use all the miles that are about to expire tomorrow and then send him a check for say, $500, then can he be mad at you?

Gee, I hope not!

There are morals, ethics and rules, but man, there's also discretion and human reality!

Take the miles.

I still say not to do it.

I understand the divorce situation, having been divorced myself (but fortunately without the acrimony I've seen in other situations). One is tempted to do unethical things for revenge. Understanding the motivation for an unethical act, perhaps even sympathizing with it, does not make the act ethical.

Getting at the miles also involves claiming to be someone you're not. That's unethical any way you look at it, especially when it's done only for personal gain and/or revenge.

In another recent thread, which some people reading this may have also seen, I posted a minority opinion that it's OK to take opened (not still sealed, therefore heading for the trash as soon as the cabin cleaning crew arrives) amenity kits that have been left behind by others who deplaned previously if one plans to use or donate their contents. Why is this case, IMHO, different? Because that one involves a physical resource, of which our dear planet has a finite quantity. Using something that would otherwise go into a landfill is a positive contribution. Airline miles are not a physical object, did not use resources, and will not create more trash if wasted. And taking an unsealed amenity kit doesn't involve impersonating anyone.

Ethics aside, don't you think this person will realize what you did, especially as you've expressed an interest in them, and set you up for a whole 'nother world of problems? They will get a statement, you know, showing those miles as having been used ...

the statement may come to the address of the person who is using them, hence, he or she kicked the X out when it all crashed and burned. Still gets that mail; forwards the rest to the X, or changed the address of the rest so the X gets it when it comes.

Statements are often electronic anyway.
I know that right now, my wife, who knows of miles and has many of them, has no clue of exactly how many she has. It is me who manages the accounts of these things in my family. I do 90% of this online and the occassional mailing goes to me as well. In fact, I manage them for my own mother and when she wants to fly, I help her pick the airline. Our family basically shares them all too. When dad died, I managed those accounts and had the airlines transfer to people in the family based on what they had. Mom provided the executor statement to me and told me to take it all over for the family. One brother was a DL flyer so he got all those points, the other a CO flyer, and I was AA so I got all those, and so forth... Mom got the starwood points and there had been many. She would get the mail on airline or hotel stuff from dad's accounts and give it to me. She now has the Amex too and gets more. She has no idea how many and still likes to write them checks to pay the bill. I tell her how many points she has when we meet and she sometimes passes it off as trivial. Yet, when it comes time to stay somewhere she likes this info! I know my mother has no idea, nor does she really concern herself with who has what because she knows my brothers and I will share awards when needed. My wife and my mother just let me do all this stuff and my brothers love to hear about the easy promos they can do with less effort than an average FT addict may be used to.

I do know this: If my wife and I ever got divorced, she'd probably let me have all the miles or use of her accounts (in fact, our arguements would be about miles and that would be why she left me--hee hee hee) But I know this because she cares less about them than I do. She would go back and live on the farm where people dont fly that much anyway.
ha ha ha

I'd just be out of luck all across the board because she is a great girl and I would not want to ever lose her! Well, it wont happen, but each couple has their own thang...

Marathon Man: Assuming this is a divorce and knowing that the ex has already expressed a deep interest in the miles and that the break up appears to not be a real harmonious one, I would think the ex would be very vigilant about checking on these miles in the future. What is it they say about a woman scorned? :p

Indeed, and I know I would sure get basted if it happened to me! My wife does not roll over and play dead, that's fer sure!

But this aint about me...

the X in question is in fact someone who really shouldn’t even exist. She is evil incarnate and she even knows it. She married the "George" in my initial divorce scenario because, at that time in his life, he had just come back from a war zone, was depressed, and living in a former soviet block country working there all off hours. She was, as he claims, the only person who understood him and he let things go further than they should have. They had a kid, decided to get married, and then, when George started to come back to the smiley old self he always had been in life, she still was the dark, Goth, depressed and cynical THING of a woman that later deteriorated into something evil incarnate. She would do what she could to try to wreck his life and all he did was try to work things out. The kid suffered thru much of this but eventually they went to court to get divorced. Russian law is archaic but they did come to an agreement to share visits, etc. She used her green card status to get to this country and now travels with the likes of a diplomat who abuses his power and certainly wrecked his friendship with George by screwing the then wife, now X! Now the kid lives here with George but eh still has to pay her $$$ and rolls his eyes whenever the subject of THE THING comes up!

You know that Russian theater hostage thing a couple years ago in Moscow? There are some who know George who constantly say thing like, I really wish if anyone we knew had to die in there, it would be her.

But she lives on, appearing once and a while mocking life and using her almost well crafted position to exploit the system more than you and I could ever find any cool loophole in some miles gig! She got the green card, got the alimony, got someone to take care of the kid, travels the world, and has no job or responsibilities! She knows not of miles, trust me. But oh, in the dying years of their relationship, he did fly with her to family or islands in hopes to do what normal men might do to attempt to fix, rebuild, help and just plain love her. They got miles and all, but man, does he still feel the pain of this or what!

He is a good man. You know, some of them are!
I say he deserves ever last mile he can scam from those old accounts he set up and if that's the only technically wrong thing he ever does, then who the heck cares! Based on the above, I bet the karma people would even agree!

nuf said. Ya'll know my stance on this one.

;)MM

Well, in that case perhaps he should go to immigration and explain that she never loved him, only used him to get into this country to commit dastardly deeds that would put our nation at risk and needs to be deported immediately. In fact, he should tell the whole sordid story about how the Russian mafia blackmailed him into marrying her - the security of the U.S. was at stake. Clearly this guy was a hero who saved us all and now all he wants is some measly miles. To hell with miles, no doubt in exchange for the information the U.S. will give him his own plane and a new identity in case she comes back looking for revenge. :eek:

hmmm, good idea! And then we can all fly on that airline, get miles and transfer them via points.com!

In the meantime, she will end up like this bloke:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...bin_laden_mask

:)MM

I bet he really would hate her too huh? Maybe wish that she was dead? And if he came up with a great plan to get rid of her? No on will know. Who needs to know. He's just following his heart right..... ("highest rule on earth"???)

Your arguement is so wrong from so many ethics standpoints. Even OP started with "I know this is wrong".

HE didnt wish she was dead, his friends did.
I think I said I BET he hates her, but we dont really know what he REALLY thinks right now, do we?... Knowing him, I would imagine he'd rather just forget her altogether and move on, and if he tells me he "hates" her in confidence, then are those real feelings or just words? Oh, I think he would not like to see her around and does not like her at all, and I think he would gladly grab the miles if they came to him in such a way, but man, what are you trying to tell me? Based on what she was like to him, I certainly would hate her and take her miles!

Is it wrong to get in and take something of hers or anyone's? Sure, but I aint the one who did it, and I am not telling everyone to go out and do it either. Anyone in here who cannot think for themselves has got to reconisder their own position.
As far as i am concerned, if George's story were what happened in this case, is it more justified than not for him to take his evil X's miles? I certainly think so.

Why do I get the feeling that the sheer fact that I was willing to come up with some form of wild justification to any of this suddenly makes me out to be some type of bad guy here? It seems that that people like yourself would rather eagerly go grab pieces of my quotes and try to illustrate to the FT community that I am the real evil doer here just for THINKING up such things!

Ethics aside, I find that even worse a move!

Now, this same issue has come up before in other threads and it's always the same thing. Reminds me of the white out story where someone got on my case just for having a freakin' imagination. Screw it--people here have to lighten up, Francis!... Like I said, I'd still take her miles if that happened like that to me.

It won't though, BTW.

:D

NO! DON'T DO IT!! IT'S FLAT OUT WRONG!!!

Please email me the account name/number/password...

Just cuz YOU shouldn't ethically do it doesn't mean that I won't do it... :p

:td: THIS IS CALLED STEALING :mad:

When I read the OP story, I didn't think of a scheming divorcee, but rather as a secretary/boss relationship. Most people who delegate booking of their plane tickets will generally know nothing about miles, give their card number to the person booking and possibly the web access code was chosen by the secretary too...

STEAL the miles from this person's account and use them to book a free ticket for someone who is currently stuck in Asia and desperatly needs to get out of there! You could easily find out who these people may be by simply calling the State Dept and asking them to give you a name of someone who needs a ticket. When you tell them you have the means to fly them out for free, they may let you do it! If not, just ask friends. Someone is bound to know someone!

Now, I ask you all:

Is THAT something that could override the ethics here?

Why, even the owner of said miles would have to agree it went to a far better cause! Later, you could pay them back something if they ever come after you, but for now, you could get some satisfaction and also prevent them from expiring while helping someone else out who is very much in need, but not yourself!

;)MM

An excellent idea, but better implemented (since this is a thread about ethics) by saying to the owner of the miles "You have all these miles you're not using, there are people stuck in Asia with no way to get home, how about using some of them to bring them back? If you don't know how, I can handle the process."

No. No. No. No. No.

My message had to be at least 10 characters...

yes, yours is indeed the wisest way to do it because then you sort of force the person with the miles to do what may be considered a very good deed and at the same time, you indicate that you can help them do it.

But if it is some ugly divorce, the last thing they need to hear is your voice, in which case, this chance you have to screw em to the wall can be done by you to them, but you really screw them over by giving their miles away to a higher cause at the same time. I would think that they may know nothing of miles anyway (as was the case in my older story in this thread about George and Elaine) and so your telling them to use them for charity is not going to make them move quickly on the act. Didnt the OP say the miles were about to expire anyway?

Well, I think if it were me and it were some ugly divorce where I felt I really got burnt, I would just go in and unload them to the charitable cause and then laugh in the face of the person. But then again, this is not about me.

At the same time, however, I am now actually considering taking some of my stray miles and finding a way to let people in need use them to get out of Asia, etc. Do we know if the places who accept such donations are up to speed on how to actually use them, or would one be better off just doing it on their own and then telling FT how it worked out? I would like to find our who in Asia may need these miles!