Media Interviews: Biz Class vs. First Class on International flights
 

A major newspaper has asked me for some help in chatting with FTers about their experience with the varying new classes of Biz vs. the old class of First Class internationally including how these types of biz classes stand up in code-shares and alliances. For instance, is the biz class of Air France (L'space) in the same ballpark as BusinessElite with alliance partner Delta?

Please post comments and interest here. Thanks.

When an airline offers the new Biz class type of product they usually do so by making this product their only premium cabin. Therefore you are getting that carrier's best service and best seats. Therefore, the new Biz class usually gives you the same type of service in terms of food and attention you would expect in first class on three cabin airlines. And since you are in the front cabin in the new Biz class there is nothing better that you can buy or upgrade to so you do not feel as though you are missing out on something better. Yet, when you fly Biz class on three class airlines you never quite feel you are getting the best that airline has to offer.

However, where new Biz classes fall short is in the seats themselves compared to first class on three class airlines. There may be a large comfortable seat with plenty of room in the new Biz class products, but since the three class airlines are installing suites and beds in their first class cabins the new Biz products can not match that level of room and comfort.

Specifically, Continental's BusinessFirst is a great product with great service which is far superior to the old style biz class on three class airlines. It seems to win a lot of praise and awards and deserves its reputation. It is really a first class product.

Re Alliances there is no way apples = apples with 3 cabin long haul aircraft OR lounges.

Sad to say United Bus. on 747 (except for exit row upstairs IMHO) compared to same with Thai or Singapore Air are in a different league entirely. And SO are the business lounges in all 3 cases.

I flew UA SYD-LAX a few weeks ago in a center row C seat and the crew and seat and "feeling" retained form the flight was very disappointing. In coach on Thai or SQ I've always got better service than on that flight. And usually nicer wines even - mad but true.

Others may differ but my take is that comparing ANY major USA airline with ANY major Asian airline on same seat class will yield similar commentary.

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~ Glen ~

A rude poster might tell you to use the search feature, Randy, but I'm much too polite. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

There is no doubt that Business Elite is superior to most business classes on conventional Y/C/F planes.

Is it better than international first? I've only flown international first on two airlines -- Air France and United. Both were superior to Business Elite.

I actually like Air France L'Espace 127 better than Delta's Business Elite (this definately seems to be a minority opinion). One reason for me is the planes that Air France flies (747, A340). And no one can beat the food on Air France, IMHO.

I've flown both International UA First and Business. The difference is hardly earth-shattering, in my view. Yes, the seats in first are more comfortable and the attention you get is more than that in business, but overall nothing spectacular. The real difference is in moving up from coach to business.

I suppose the introduction of First Suites with the sleepers and all may change things substantially.

The quality of United's premium international service is limited by the attitude of the flight attendants, who are "primarily here for your safety" and not to provide service. It's a rare United FA who can compare with the attentive service given by Thai or Cathay Pacific. Regarding F versus C, I find United's Transatlantic F service to be just about identical to C except for the seats. Transpacific, on the legs with Asian FAs they do better.

Same old story it seems regarding carriers and service-

Asian > European >>> American

Sad but so true, IMHO! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

But we do make the BEST movies here in the US! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Just finished MIA-PAR-BOS on AA Premium Class with its fully reclining seats. The service and comfort(s) were wonderful. This was a rare treat for me as I usually fly Bus on AA to Europe. AA Bus class is adequate and seems to be better than most carrier's business class. However, on many other trips I have flown Delta Bus Elite and found it to be more than satisfactory, in fact superior to any bus class seat I have ever flown in. Given the difference in price, I find the quality to price ratio to be superior in the Delta Bus Elite seat. In June I flew NWA Bus Class to DTW-HKG-DTW and found the service adequate but not quite as good as the Delta Bus Elite product. There was less room and a lower level of service.
I have also flown BA MIA-LHR-MIA in business class and found it to be sub-standard. The seats were nowhere as comfortable, nor was there as much personal space as on Delta. The level of service on BA was also sub-standard and inferior to any other airline's business class that I have used. My sole reason for flying in business or first is the extra space and comfort they offer and if I can find it for substantially less in business class that's where I will spend my dollar.

Comparing DL BizElite (AMS-ATL) with their alliance partners AM Clase Premier (ATL-MEX + v.v.) and AF business class CDG-EZE and GRG-CDG:

DL Biz Elite is streets ahead, with superior space, comfort and cabin service. AM is adequate, restricted space (in a first class?) - wouldn't like to do longhaul. AF lags behind, space OK but ventilation bad - and until November 1 they still allow smokers! - they still have a row of F, which looked empty when I flew with them.

VS have a 3-class layout, with Upper Class (= business class) the top level. Haven't flown this year, trip coming up in 2 weeks. Until now, I have rated VS the tops, way ahead of BA biz, for example. (I haven't tried BA F, but it is much more expensive than VS J, and I cannot compare BA's new J on their single route JFK-LHR starting soon.)

United vs Us Airways-

IAD - CDG
UA 777 is 2-3-2, decent food/decent service/decent amenity pack/decent entertainment system/GREAT lounge, both at IAD and CDG.

DCA-PHL-CDG
US 330 is 2-2-2, good food/great service/decent amenity pack/FANTASTIC entertainment-interactive Sony Passport system/GREAT lounge at PHL - bad lounge at CDG(4 or 5 airlines cramming into).

The US Airways cabin has so much more legroom and the 2-2-2 is alot nicer than 2-3-2. Even the old 767 Envoy service is better than UA. I have not traveled in it yet but I am told that UA First class sleeper's are better than US First class kind of but not quite sleeper seats.

MG

My experiences include DL, AA, and BA. I do enjoy DL's BizElite and think it's a great product. Seat comfort is good, but they are quite narrow on the 767. I applaud CO's decision to make BizFirst a 2-1-2 config on their 767-400s. In my opinion DL's catering in Biz is on a par with BA's, but AA's business class service is the best of the three. AA's move to 60" pitch in Biz will move their product quite a bit forward - now if they could just improve their seat comfort they'll be in good shape. First Class on BA, followed by First on AA, are definitely superior to DL.

Overall, I would rate BA's new ClubWorld the best cabin (though I may be in the minority on that, I think it's fantastic), AA's catering the best Business service, and DL BizElite a good solid overall product.

This summer we flew Air Canada in their biz first. This was a 2-2-1 767 from Montreal to Tel Aviv.

We had the same crew both ways. I've flown in biz and upfront before, but A/C's service really hit the mark. When I inquired about it, the senior flight att said this, " I treat all my passengers as if they were a guest in my home."
I've never heard that before. For the first time in my 12 years of flying, I thought my mother was in charge! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Now the food wasn't the best (never order beef on A/C), but everything else was just fine.

Dan

Recent int'l first experiences:

UA IAD-MXP
UA NRT-ORD
Lan Chile JFK-LIM

Recent int'l 2-class experiences
DL ATL-MAN, ARN-JFK, ATL-GRU
CP YYZ-MXP
TW LGW-STL
AF ORD-CDG (in their 767s they don't have espace 180)

Recent int'l Biz in 3 class experiences

UA EZE-ORD
AA JFK-GRU
BA LHR-IAD

1. First without sleepers isn't worth more than about 10K miles/$200 RT than biz. The extra hovering just isn't worth it for me--it doesn't make the flight any shorter, my sleep any better, etc.

2. Haven't tried a sleeper-type, full flat F, so don't have that to compare

3. DL cabins too big for good service in BizElite (except did get great service ARN-JFK--the JFK crews are really better (efficiency, professionalism) than the ATL crews, yet aren't any less friendly/more attitudinal. (Although ARN-JFK is probably a niche market for them (meaning that the crew probably flies together a lot--this crew had really good language skills, including Finnish--one of the f/as noticed I'd picked up a Finnish newspaper and asked if I spoke Finnish). But arriving into JFK--oh my.

4. I CANNOT figure out the video systems on any airline--I simply can't ever see a movie in its entirety--either I don't figure out the combination of channel/headphone/monitor/timing right or something. I really like the DVD/minicassette idea.

5. I'm relatively insensitive to the recline amount--since I really don't sleep anyway except fully flat, I don't find DL's 160 degree better/worse than TW/AC/CP's 155 degree versus AF's 137. Doesn't matter much to me.

The perfect airline for me would be TW with 5 seats across--like some of the small touches (cotton duvets, in-seat video players) plus the more intimate atmosphere of the smaller cabin.

JL

My feeling is that Delta's BusinessElite, Continental's BusinessFirst, and the other two-class Business Classes are far superior to the three-class products. Especially with US carriers, the business class in a 3-class arena must be made worse so that First will appear superior.

But the two-class Business Classes are not First Class. I do not believe BusinessElite competes at any level with BA First, AF L'Espace 180, etc.

I agree about the JFK v. Atlanta crews with Delta. JFK seems much more professional, faster, etc. But Atlanta is a better connecting point than JFK any day IMO.


Unless it is a true sleeper seat, recline doesn't make that much difference to me. Legroom, entertainment, powerports, etc, are a bigger issue.

Jamiel, it's interesting to hear your opinion TWA's biz class. I've heard some surprisingly good things about it, and I hope to try it sometime. But I am surprised that they have 2-1-2. I thought Continental was the only US airline to do that (BTW-recently flew a CO 764 to EWR in BusinessFirst and it was a great product).

sorry for the confusion--that was the description of my PERFECT biz class. TW is 2x2x2 on the 767, alas.

jl