I always do. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif



Silence is golden.



:::sniff, sniff::: What's that I smell? Burning martyr??



That's the most honest thing you've said so far. Much appreciated.


Oh, bunk! I'm straight forward about my beef with you, which is 1) sheer volume of posts, and 2) copyright infringement.

Sigh. Maybe it's time I joined nathan detroit on the other side.

Signing off now ...

[This message has been edited by essxjay (edited 03-01-2000).]

We discussed this copyright rule before. And the Associated Press is very very picky on this. The news service has not acted YET but they do get angry when news stations run their material word for word.

We have a rule on our job that we are UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES TO WRITE VERBATIUM from any source. Newspapers. Wire Services. Reporter info. The powers that be have sent memos on this and we have had dragged out meetings on this.

The object if you have to write something on Flyertalk is to do it in your own words. A short summary of what it's about and then posting a link. That's it.

I see about a dozen or more stories that I could post. But like Baobab suggests I don't because I figure "we can already get most of this stuff from T-V, radio or newspapers."

This is in no means an attack of you DOC. I think we ALL need to limit our posts. Like the "Who wants to Marry a Millioniare stuff." I frankly don't want to hear of this junk when I get home from work.

OMNI: And I'm sorry that some of you are sick and tired of me posting about my cats. If you get to know me you'll understand why I do talk of them so much. I'll only share my reasons once I get to know you and trust you. There are a few Flyertalkers who know me very well and understand what I do and i"ve built some special friendships from all of this.

SO maybe i"ll post "Another stupid cat post" and number them so people don't have to waste their time with them.



[This message has been edited by Catman (edited 03-01-2000).]

But I'm begining to think we don't have enought News Stories about those subjects here! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

PG, maybe you're starting to get my point. See, you are annoyed by the cat, cigar, silly spelt stuff. Well that stuff is at least about the people on this board! Imagine the annoance that some feel when the topic has nothing to do with either the people or topic of this board!

Any post you make about you or your cats is welcome by me, Catman. As is any post by Doc about himself and his hobbies or personal experiences. That's what makes things interesting and us a community.

As has been said, it's the volume of non-related news service items that I find inappropriate.


[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 03-01-2000).]

I certainly respect and agree with copyright law. I'm a national account manager for a global publisher selling to a global e-commerce retailer, and intelluctual content should be vigourously defended. But I also really like reading the news. I know there has been some issues with some of Doc's posting (news and other incidents) in the past, but I really like finding out some of the news FIRST here on FT. In reality, I can't skim every single news source on the web. Most of the news Doc posts is FT-related. Because, Doc has posted, for the most part descriptive headers, I can decide if I want to read it or not, much like PG suggested.

Copyright law may disagree, but in my own mind, I've always view Doc as the messenger, not the owner. I think he usually gives credit, especially with the links. I've seen this issue in the past couple years here on FT and all that I can say is that news is important.



[This message has been edited by jeffreyt (edited 03-01-2000).]

Well, I guess it's time for me to give my 2 cents. I do not profess to be a great fan of doc's. I agree with many that the sheer number of his posts are too many, and it wastes board space, time and patience wading through them. More importantly, though, the outright reproduction of copyrighted stories is a serious (albeit probably civil) violation of the copyright laws. Last I checked (and I don't specialize in copyright), I think that the issue of whether simply posting a link to a news source is permissible under the copyright laws is in flux, but certainly seems less problematic in my mind. I would therefore recommend that if Doc wants to bring things to our attention, he simply give a brief description and then include a link. (and, of course, the extra effort which that may take may discourage too many posts.)
My problem with the idea of "policing" posts on the board is that it goes against the grain of my philosophy. As Voltaire (allegedly) said (paraphrasing): "I disagree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it." One of the true measures of a free and democratic society is it's ability to put up with offensive speech, of whatever nature, whether it be criticism of a government, espousing of heinous racist views, or other unpopular speech. After all, it depends upon whose ox is being gored. The problem with censorship is that SOMEONE has to be the censor, and may not like democrats, or republicans, or short people, or cat lovers, or people who can't spell, or people who seem to have nothing else to do with their lives than post every thing they can find on FlyerTalk, whether anyone else cares about it or not. It is, therefore, a job I do not choose to give to anyone, if I have any say in it, either here or elsewhere.

My five cents worth. This TOPIC hits a VERY raw nerve with me. I have a REAL problem with "OTHER" people on Flyer Talk policing posts. CENSORSHIP can be a VERY dangerous thing. That is the reason I left Usnet after a year.Because of all the craziness.. I have had two "incidents" on the Marriott board in the last three weeks with other posters making "critiques" of my posts. And ONE outright personal remark.And YOU wonder WHY I don't have my e-mail address listed? As I always say... "IF YOU DON"T LIKE MY ADVICE OR INFORMATION OR COMMENTS,INQUIRIES" I see things as they are FROM my perpective BTW... And you see MICHAEL
MAHONEY listed on the post skip it.. Move on. THERE ARE PLENTY OF POSTS TO READ!




Sorry I can't help on the copyright issue. I do enjoy "some" of DOCS posts.

P.S. I have enjoyed the civility on this board thus far. I am NOT going to take sides on this issue!

Regards,

Michael Mahoney

At no time have I suggested or advocated censorship of these boards, and to introduce that idea in the current discussion only serves to inflame. Let's stick to the original issues of the thread: copyrighted material and volume of posts.

The only request made by me of other posters was to practice some self-restraint and good judgement about the amount and types of content placed here. No way, no how can that possibly be construed as a call for censorship to anyone who understands the definition of the word.

I will also not stand by silently as post after post is made that violates copyrights and the terms of service that each of us agreed to when we joined this community.

To borrow the Voltarian phraseology, I stand by my right to speak out on such matters, and of course, defend your right to disagree with me.


[This message has been edited by essxjay (edited 03-02-2000).]

I have to say I disagree with self policing. I think when someone gets a little power there is the possibility of corrupting the board/person. Anyone has the ability to post whatever... there is also Flyertalk who is responsible for illegal activity.. which we can complain to. If something violates law, great get rid of it.. is someone wants to post... they can do it.. eventually they will get ignored... if not interesting.. but if they are... more power to them!!

As I have said before, I have several problems with any sort of 'top down' censorship of posts. However, copyrighted work is protected - I think Indogulf makes the ideal suggestion i.e. post an appropriate link, not the article. If the material is not online, write a brief summary and give a source.

As I have also said before, I like In the News. It provides a lot of (links to) aviation/FF related material which is less accessible in this country as it relates to US airlines. That makes it useful resource for the few of us in other parts of the world http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif.

Common sense and self-restraint? Oh sorry, wrong board...

Everyone is making good points.

Of course there should be no censorship on this board. That would take away the sense of community here.

But maybe we should try our own idea of "self-policing" (See if this makes sense http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif we sit down, think about what we're going to post and then decide "will I post this and no body responds.

That way we don't have to exaust our fingers cutting and pasting articles that no one will even care about.

PremEx: ditto back to you on any sheep or cigar or wine stories.

I think the person stuff adds character to this board and makes it more human. You get to know the characters behind the names. I like that.

essxjay, I think you need to chill. Unless you work for the agencies or sources that you believe were ripped off, you should have better things to do. If you do work for those folks, then I'd like a job as surfing the net for a living seems to be the ultimate way to get frequent flyer miles.

Onefreeman, that's a little harsh. I think there is enormous self restraint here. If you disagree, try reading just about any alt.* newsgroup for a week - It'll drive you spare.

Duped from the South Africa thread:

Which would you rather have:
1) A flyertalk where copyrighted material is not posted?

or

2) No flyertalk at all because Randy has his pants sued off of him?

It's just sooooooo easy to provide a link to yahoo or msnbc or any of the thousand other non-subscription news sources without violating any U.S. federal laws that I cannot understand why anyone would want to jeopardize the whole forum for the sake of saving one click on a hotlink. I find that attitude wantonly selfish. And if the news service is not free, then you're REALLY asking for trouble by reprinting it here or anywhere else!!!

As someone who has had to (sucessfully) pursue copyright violations of my work (ok, so it was my employer's copyright of my work, but I still took it personally), this is a pretty sensitive topic to me, too.

As my copyright attorney says: Speech is free in America so long as they are your words. If not, be prepared to pay. (I suggested he put that on his business card, he declined http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif )

As a former system operator of a bulletin board, my thoughts are simple; only Randy Petersen or one of Inside Flyer's representatives or delegated representatives should be able to make any comments on content here. If they don't like doc's post, they should tell him, and for all intensive purposes, here their word is God. Period.

The only thing I care about as common courtesy is a descriptive headline, so when I see it on my 'latest' list I can ignore it if it's not of interest to me.

As per the copyright thing, again, only two people should be concerned -- InsideFlyer and doc. Let InsideFlyer make their own decision. I've posted news articles in the past. I snippet one to two paragraphs and link to the original article. Works for me.

I've run bulletin boards and mailing lists for over ten years. Self-policing does NOT work. There has to be authority in one place and only one place, and that is the hoster/owner of the bulletin board. After all, due to the jumbled state of laws they may be held responsible so they and only they have the power.