An end to ff points and status!
 

Thought that might attract some attention.

Twenty-twenty five years ago airlines provided great service. Seats were sizable and food was pretty good. Planes had room on them. Passengers were pretty happy. Frequent flyers were often upgraded, because airlines kept track of such things. I did a lot of flying then and that is how I remember it!

Service was also great at car rental companies. Lines were short to rent a car. If they were ever to get long one just slid over to the next company and rented from them.

It was easy to vote with our feet, as we were not vested in a bunch of ff this and that. You could walk over to another counter and take their flights without losing anything.

About a dozen plus years ago the ff programs started. We were on the "high". Free this and that. Special treatment. Our employer paid for our travel, but we got all the benefits. Families would get "free" vacations based on our business flying, car rental and hotel programs. The "high" spread. Eventually, to pay for this the airlines started to let service slide. Seats got smaller as did aisles. Food service and quality started to slide (or disappear). The number of FA on a plane was reduced (on a per passanger seat basis). Then the lines at check in got longer.

More recently everything has slid. Often hard to get your choice for point travel times and places. Air rage. Congressional oversite.

Through all this the number of travelers has grown and the skies are full of planes. But the airlines fight with price (the price matching duels) and service goes to h-ll. The "new" flyers were converts for buses and did not expect any service. They never saw how it was. That is why Southwest (the flying bus) is so popular and has a high rating. If you expect almost nothing, then you will be surprised how well Southwest will fill your wishes. Long lines, not food, just flying buses that keep on schedule.

Why has this happened? I believe it is because of ff programs. Most of the people on this board are the "haves or the rich" in this story. We love the "high" and are completely hooked. We complain about the service problems but it is ok as long as we get our "fix". Free upgrades, special attention, free flights, club memberships, and the like has us (me) too spoiled to spend too much time remembering when flying was fun and comfortable and service oriented.

That is how I see it. Plenty of room for others though.

Deregulation.

I am not certain the loss of service, space, etc. can be directly attributed to FF miles. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif They do offer us the entire can of the non-alcholic beverage of choice. I do however truly believe that your term "hooked" is true in more ways than one. As an AA FF who used to fly Canadian I am having to get used to being a "nobody" on Air Canada. I was used to priority check-in, almost always getting a seat in F and never having to stand in any lines. Now my check in @ YYZ takes over an hour, sometimes longer including customs. I recently returned from KUL in F, upgraded using miles from J on CX.(KUL-HKG-YYZ) Two days later I had the "opportunity" to fly gratis on Continental, EWR-SEA in a coach middle seat (737) non-stop. I think I will stay "hooked" and fly out of my way on AA, just for those perks that I have become so used to and now expect. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif Perhaps that is why so many of us howl when we hear rumblings that the airline industry is going to begin to provide these perks based upon revenue not miles. I guess I won't be on any of those UAL $499 mileage runs to JFK-BKK anymore. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by transborder (edited 08-03-2000).]

I fail to see how FF programs have led to a downgrading of service?

The reason, planes are crowded is more people are flying.

In the US, 25 years ago, very few americans flew. For the average middle class american, air travel was a rarity.

Go back 45 years and only the Jet set traveled by air.

Air travel has become more democratic, and less elitist over the years.

Personally, I think airlines and hotels are the most customer responsive industries. When was the last time you saw a special checkout line at Wal-mart or Sears or Macy's for frequent shoppers.

There is no question in my mind that airline service- as well as other travel services such as car rental- is indeed significantly worse than it was 20-25 years ago. ( The citation of Walmart and Sears as examples merely shows that service has declined in other areas as well !)

I think this has to do with many factors, and that ff programs play only a minor role. As air travel has become mass transportation, fares have fallen in terms of real dollars. Airlines make their money now on quantity rather than quality, and that has affected everything from size of seats to the amount of time that can be spent serving any one individual ( in line, on the phone or on the airplane).

I think, too, that decline in travel service is related to a general decline in expectation of good service. We don't really expect it any more, and so we don't get it. People have quite willingly accepted such "improvements" as thirty minutes wait on the phone while making your way through innumerable "options", which have always "recently been changed." Nobody minds if workers at the supermarket don't know where their own products are located, or if staff are rude and unhelpful. We tolerate it all because we believe it is the tradeoff for lower price. I think that pendulum will swing the other way one of these days, and there will be money to be made in providing excellent service. Maybe even in the airline industry.

I actually would welcome a move to switch from a miles based ff model to a revenue based model.

It would mean that far less people would qualify and more FF (mostly businessmen) would be sitting in coach and would demand a better class of service which would benefit everyone.

With fewer FF qualifying for stuatus the airlines could add perks and it would ensure that status actually meant something and those that really do pay allot get the benefits they are paying for (biz class lounges are so full of people who have used miles to upgrade from cheap tics that they are barely better than airport gates).

Just an idea. Now let me get out of your way so that you can go to work with the flame thrower http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I don't think FF programs cause our current woes in any way except one.

Airplanes are more crowded but air travel is more accessible. Twenty-five or thirty years ago only the rich could contemplate a weekend in Europe or indeed most of the pleasure jaunts we call "mileage runs." And who among us would deny enjoying more time in first class? Air transport in the United States has become an egalitarian utility. Frequent flyer programs soften the blow of egalitarianism.

Where FF programs hurt is here: when they complicate a frequent flyer's decision to take his/her business elsewhere over bad service.

Any old fare sale can fill the coach cabins of the worst airline with price-sensitive bargain hunters. But when full-ticket prices zoom way beyond the reasonable and service standards plummet, an airline's most important (read: lucrative) customers are far less likely to do what they ought to do and walk away. (Look at the United Mileage Plus addicts who rationalize any and all UA outrages and keep driving towards that 1K goal.)

In THAT sense, frequent flyer programs impede service improvements and insulate an airline from having to prioritize service. Miles are the opiate that anesthetize an airline's key loyalists to the manifold abuses they suffer.

UA is having a horrible, grim year, driving thousands and thousands of people to the brink of rage or hysteria. And everyone knows it. Yet UA claims blandly -- and bizarrely -- that "customer service is our top priority," while noting record profits. They don't have to acknowledge that they're crippled and dysfunctional. They can lie at a macro level (in the mass media) and at a micro level (at the boarding gate). And because frequent flyer programs keep people coming back regardless, they get away with it.

THAT hurts the industry, and us.

FF programs are to blame, but only for a small percent of the service problems.

Deregulation gets most of the blame IMHO.

We got what we asked for. Free competition and a marketplace driven industry.

The biggest complaint I have with the industry is that those with little or no elite status get sub-standard service. Good service and respect of all customers should be an airline's base service level. Elite members deserve and have earned outstanding service above and beyond the acceptable base. IMHO.


[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 08-03-2000).]

Problem, Premex, is that there are too many elites. There are plenty of people who charge all their business and other expenses to their CC and do relatively little travelling and these people clutter up the lounges and the front of the plane. This makes it harder for the true "road warriors" to get upgrades and that extra special service that the $$ they spend on actually flying entitle them too.

As far as economy class and non status travelers getting short shrift, I couldn't agree more. If you change to a revenue based model many of the people who are now elites because of carefully crafted and low priced mileage runs, and clickrewards, and dinning programs and hotels stays, etc ad nausem would likely not be elites but stuck in coach with the rest of the sardines. They would also raise holy hell and I am pretty sure that service would improve drastically.

In other words it is a win-win situation as the elites who spend more on airline travel get better perks, service, and easier access to the perks with fewer people qualifying for elite status (how many 1K are there now, some 50K? ) and the sardines in economy get a better all around experience because the people with clout (i.e. corporate travelers, especially the huge numbers who can no longer get in to the elite group based on the revenue model will insist on better service and cabin).

It is also solves the problem of trying to choose a CC, a car rental, a hotel, or a restaurant based on its partnership with your FF. program.

Of course it will never happen so all you guys who are just squeezing in to elite status every year needn't worry http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Actually, I think it's us as consumers that are completely responsible for the current degradation in service. Frequent flyer programs are in many ways similar to stock options (aka, golden handcuffs) that companies give to retain their employees. I know quite a few people sticking with their current employer to "cash out" and the same is true for frequent flyers. You have a choice of walking out (of the company and of the airline), but there's always a fear you're leaving money (or miles) on the table. You also have a choice of paying more for that first class ticket or buying that ticket on Midwest Express or just dealing with "poor" service and flying on the cheap. It's entirely up to you. Frequent flyer programs aren't bad at all. They do exactly what they were designed to and from a business perspective make tremendous sense.

mapboy

"Personally, I think airlines and hotels are the most customer responsive industries."

Well, maybe but with some very notable exceptions! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

NO NAMES! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

I don't think the decline of service is DIRECTLY linked to FF programs. I must preface this by saying that I never flew in "the good old days". These are just thoughts from hearing folks talk.

* Air travel is now mass transit in the sky. I think CO just announced an 80% load factor. That's a STAGGERING number. When you must service that many passengers, you either hire new staff (expensive - and not an option if you are running on thin profit margins) or you simply provide that much less service per passenger.

* Dillution of miles and more award travel is certainly part of the equation. I believe that something like 9% (or 11%? one of those 2 #'s) of UA's seats were taken by award travellers. While those miles that the flier cashed in were "paid for", it doesn't help the bottom line like a fare paying passenger would.

* More Elites. Part of this is due to the changing economy. More and more jobs are in the information/service sector, meaning more travel. Elite status (unlike earning miles) must be earned by one's butt in a seat. So if there are more Elites, it is because they are in planes. You can make a case that they are too generous with benefits.

You are seeing DL roll back benefits on the lower tier elites. If these lower Elites walk, it'll put pressure on the other airlines in two ways (1) they must absorb these fliers, and (2) it'll send a crystal clear message that if you mess with these folks, it'll hit you in your wallet.

If, on the other hand, DL sees no significant impact, you can expect the other airlines to follow suit and you'll see the level or service decline for the Elites as well.

As a Silver on CO, I'd be disappointed to lose those complimentary FC upgrades!

* Culture. We live in a time of less civility. Manners are considered a thing of the past for far too many folks. Airlines can teach courtesy and manners to their staff, but unless they TRULY internalize it, it is yet another task that is part of the job and not a way of life.

* Stress. EVERYONE is under more stress. Connection times are tighter which impacts passengers and staff alike. If your airline flies and hub-and-spoke network, one thunderstorm can effective shut down half the country. Now put 80% load factors for 200 flights into 1 airport terminal with limited food, limited capacity and with people standing around watching their missed appointments accumulate and see what happens next.

At one time owning a non-draft horse placed you in the upper classes of society. The same with riding a train, owning a car, row boat etc. They all migrated to the unwashed masses and became homogenized and compromised. Ditto with air travel.

IMHO the small saving grace for the ff crowd is the existence of the nicer ff programs.....no matter how poor some/all of them are. At least we ff'ers get a crumb or two, now and again. It would take very little for the airlines to eliminate them with little OVERALL loss of revenue.

They allow the individual airlines to nicely add directly to their bottom line if they properly utilize the ff programs to develop loyalty and brand awareness.

Mvic, you're way off here. Travel miles are the only miles that help one qualify for elite status. So the elite lounges and FC sections are full of ... frequent flyers.

The only people your revenue-based model would affect are those who do mileage runs. This is a small, small percentage of travelers (believe it or not, a mileage obsession is not shared by the rest of the population), and most of them, I'd guess, are doing so to make a higher level of elite status, not just make the lowest level of elite.

Also, under your model, say one needs to spend, what, $5,000 in a year to qualify for elite. That may sound high when you can go coast to coast for $200-ish, but airlines certainly wouldn't give elite for $1,000. Anyway, in effect, you're selling elite status, which frequent flyers here have complained about with the AmEx Centurion card.

But it just doesn't add up. If you spend $5,000 to get a year's worth of upgrades, then that's really going to eat away at the airline's ability to sell full-fare tickets (remember, many companies will pay more so employees can have a better ride, especially on int'l flights).

Basically, this creates a system of where one set of people pay much more with the expectation of better service and a better product. Fine. You get what you pay for.

But that can't co-exist with the current fare system because customers wouldn't go for it. You would need all coach tickets to be one price, and all first/business tickets to be another. Basically, that's reshaping the entire industry, and that's not going to happen.

Motnot, I can't speak to FC because I never fly it but as far as Biz class goes there seem to be lots of award travelers in the cabin and lounges at least on the transatlantic routes. Maybe they are all very frequently fliers and would be travelling with award travel anyway based on the revenue model but I am not sure.

Things change at the margins and my point was that if you could take maybe 10-20% of people who now use biz class because of non revenue miles and relegate them to coach, then coach would most likely improve and it would make things less crowded for the revenue based FF. Possibly the outcome would just be a more clear cut version of what we already have. Some airlines that are known for low cost and just pack everyone in and other airlines that are know for superior coach service and comfort but who charge more. I suppose the main outcome might be that airlines like AA and UA for example would substantially improve their coach service whilst offering some extra perks to the very frequent fliers that they have even more of an incentive to keep.

We are in complete agreement on one thing, it will never happen because of prisoner's dilemma logic. In fact if it ever happened on an industry wide basis you can bet that there would be all sorts of lawsuits alleging collusion.

As far as individual airlines are concerned, I can only offer experience on BA, as they are the only airline I have flown often enough to notice a change in standards over the years.
Firstly, it must be said that the standards in Club World have improved (as with many business classes, I would imagine). However, the standards in World Traveller certainly haven't (as with many airlines' coach classes, I would imagine). Now I believe that this is SOLELY due to the current scheme of having elite frequent fliers (which is more often than not bred by premium fare-paying customers).
BA have put all their effort into taking care of the gold (and to some extent silver) elite flyers these days, as they know that this is where the money lies. Providing these passengers with 'extra service ' should not be at the expense of the discounted budget travellers. Those who aren't in the elite tiers and those on discounted tickets are even the first to be bumped off an overbooked flight...logic would suggest that bumping should occur depending on time of arrival at check-in and regardless of tier status. It is an absolute disgrace that non-elite tier or non-premium class passengers are not made to feel valued at all nowadays and utterly shameful that the British class system plays such an enormous role in BA's attitudes to customer service.


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[This message has been edited by salt (edited 08-05-2000).]

Hi

If indeed the genuine very frequent flyer is getting short changed because people with credit card points etc are getting upgraded then why has noone started a first class only airline?

It seems to me that if there is a reasonable size population of very frequent flyers prepared to pay a premium to get away from the riff-raff surely someone could have started an airline to cater exclusively to their needs, at least on major trunk routes eg New York to Los Angeles?

This would mean a smaller jet would be outfitted exclusively with first class seating and a suitable complement of very attentive cabin crew. No riff raff to upgrade and highly personal service all the way through. With the USA's population I would have thought somebody would cater to this market exclusively.

cheers Peter

ffhound: As many U.S.-based fliers on this board will, no doubt, remember, this was tried, about 15 years ago. It was called MGM Grand. The model was almost exactly as you describe. It did not succeed: one of the reasons usually cited was the lack of an effective, linked, frequent flyer program!

RichG

That's easily fixed.

Simply start the airline as I described above and then introduce a frequent flyer program. As the only passengers would be first class ones there would be no chance of economy passengers being upgraded. As for filling seats it would just be a question of finding the correct redemption rate level.

By the way I had a look on the web and found the following photo for those so interested.
http://www.photovault.com/Link/Techn.../TAFV09P11_07B

cheers Peter


[This message has been edited by ffhound (edited 08-06-2000).]

Don't you read the news? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif Legend Airlines has finally gotten off the ground with DAL-LAX and DAL-IAD flights (LAX-IAD with the obvious change in DAL). AA tried to stop them but were unsuccessful, so now AA has jumped in with 56 seat F100's between LAX and DAL.

You get Delta miles on Legend, so they did solve the problem of a FF program.

It's probably not going to work, as the fares are now the same as AA mainline minus $3 PFC difference. That is, you can fly LAX-DAL for $266 r/t if you plan in advance and stay over Saturday night. I don't think those fares is what Legend had in mind.

[This message has been edited by JSrombough (edited 08-06-2000).]

I don't think FF programs or deregulation has anything to do with the quality of service on the airlines. The airlines are businesses, and their objective is to make money.

With the a robust economy, many more people are flying now. The load factors are at an all-time high, so there is no incentive to offer better service. Casual flyers will try to find the lowest fare. Business flyers will usually pay a higher fare, as they usually do not have the opportunity to buy 21 days (or 14,7,...) in advance.

When there is more money to be made, and more competition, the service and amenities will increase. For example, look at transatlantic business class over the past ten years. Seating, meals, and entertainment have all been improved dramatically. The prices have also gone up about 60%.

When the economy falls off, the load factors will fall, prices will fall some, and the airlines will add leg room, better meals, ... to entice people to use their product.

Complaints from customers do not amount to much unless it affects the bottom line.

Except for maybe the Peanut fares. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

MGM was grand....too bad it did not work. There planes were posh and service was excellent...
I say we all just try and get along and the rest will take care of itself.

My first few flying experiences were in the late 70s. I seem to recall crappy food and cramped seating in economy. I remember in 1981 just about the most cramped plane I was ever on ... a BA 747. I remember being served frozen fried chicken on CO (with ice crystals). I remember chaos because of DC10 groundings. I was in my teens, and there were no FF programs. I remember standing in lines to get a little sticker off of a seatmap. I remember turbulance being a lot worse flying through rather than just around storms.

That said, some recent travels have been most unpleasant. But if you REALLY look back, other than perhaps the very early days of luxury air travel, or you were a frequent F passenger in the pre-FF days, your earlier travels were no luxury funfilled ride in the park.

Why not a combination of Revenue and ACTUAL MILES (NOT American AIr's model where everything counts towards status.)

Actual Miles gets you the elite
Revenue gets you an upper tier elite and a higher percentage of upgrades and perks.

If we go to just a revenue based elite program there probably will be a small number of flyers in First/business and those of us who work for companies where the CHEAPEST ticket is the bottom stuck in coach. I know my company would rather put me in the cheapest seat possible and NOT pay four figures for a business/first ticket.

And coach is already overcrowded.

So FF programs are only a small percentage of the problem with the airlines.

Deregulation is the biggest reason for the decline in service.

Eastbay1k
Western Airlines and PSA offered free champagne in coach on flights from LAX to SFO. PSA offered two rows of seats that faced each other in the back with plenty of leg room and, at that time, one could smoke in the back.

When Alaska came in, on SEATAC flights they offered Steak and eggs for breakfast in F and sausage and eggs in coach. Sweet roll and fruits, juice and coffee! Free wine in coach. Almost always a empty row (2 or 3 seats) available. When the flight was a one stop, they offered 2 breakfasts! Dinner was alway a choice F and C. F was usually steak Diane, filet or fish. Dessert was usually cheese cake. A prayer card was always on the tray...do with it as you wished.

First class on the 747's , domestic, ment the food cart with prime rib cut before your eyes (only once, upgraded as a young man in a suit with an upgrade and a costly coach ticket).

That's my memory.

Ok ... I did exclude Alaska Airlines from my memory, and I was an avid AS flyer... (On the other hand, I recall that last-min rountrips SFO/SEA were $800 before competition in the route). Well, there you have it. Competition/deregulation caused the decline in service!

I remember paying $39 rt on PSA and Western LAX SFO, special and more often $59. By the time AS came along prices were in the low $100's and SEATAC in the mid 100's (350-550) most of the time. In the early 90's my top payment (coach, then upgraded) was $1200 LAX to SEATAC. 2 days notice, no Saturday, no fare war. Most of the time during the late 80's, early 90's the fare was in the $700 area. Triple miles, bonus status miles, hotel and car got me to over 850,000 miles. Took a cruise on Holland America, in a junior suite, to Alaska with ff points!

If all Frequent Flyer programs were equal, they would cease to exist!!! Period, case closed, end of story! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

It's almost happened with car rental programs.