Whose property are FF miles? Please help!
 

Does anyone know if there are any governments, (local, state, or federal), which have a policy/rule/law which makes frequent flyer miles paid for with PUBLIC MONEY, to be the property of that government or government agency, and NOT the property of the earner/member?? ANY help greatly appreciated!
Jim

The Federal government does not let its employees keep the miles. I base that on the conversation I had with a seatmate that worked for the Justice Dept (Dept of Corrections) and on a 'very good friend' who is retired military. Even when flying paid commericial they did not get to keep the miles. Hope that helps.

That's correct. My brother-in-law works with the U.S. Forest Service and has told me that because the government get special preferred rates with the airlines for its employees, no frequent flier miles are earned on tickets issued to government agencies paid for with public monies. Glad I don't work in a job with the government where I'm having to fly all the time!

First of all, these policies vary by division of government and vary by local, state and Federal. Currently the governement has a broad policy that miles belong to the governement and only a few of the departments actually enforce this. Currently FDA, SEC and others capture the miles of their employees to use on business travel. However, airlines do give miles away to those traveling on governement airfares. Some departments have tried it and given up for the ability to manage it, while others are real stringent, such as some of the
Atomic Commission departments like the Livermore Lab, or the Tennessee Valley Authority. There is a provision in the governement policy that states that miles may be used for upgrades on long haul flights. I do know of many governement employees that have enjoyed several free vacations to Hawaii with tax payer miles. Also, there have been a few cases whereby a governement employee who tried to return his miles to the governement after retiring from service was refused the gesture because they didn't know what to do with them. There are a few states which half heartedly try to manage the miles of state employees, which would ideally include those at state run universities and college athletes, etc. This practice is not widespread and i think only South Dakota is still active in this effort, with Floria and others having "crafted" a legal opinion from the State Sttorney General that capturing miles fo state employess would be illegal since it would require a "second" account to manage just government miles and second accounts aren't allowed by the airlines. Rather weak arguement but it leaves the miles in the hands of the state employees. In the case of the government, it has censored a few employees for "Embezzlement of government property" but those are rare cases. In any of this, there is usally a gap between practive and policy........

Hope this helps.

Although Federal Govt asserts ownership rights on employee miles earned on federal travel, airlines do not recognize that assertion. However, employees are employees and subject to employer rules. Federal Govt employees may use FF miles earned on Govt paid travel (ref: FTR and JTR sites' FAQs) for free tickets for subsequent official govt trips or upgrades to biz class (only--never first) when specifically authorized and then only when the flight time exceeds fourteen (yes, 14) hours. And in the latter case of a flight time greater than 14 hours, ONLY when the employee must start work IMMEDIATELY upon arrival (no rest period of any amount) at the business location. Employees who do other than the above are risking their pensions. Removal from the Federal Service is an employer option. Enforcement and interpretation nuances vary with organizations but the Federal Travel Regulations apply to all Federal Employees.

It is true that the federal government has very restrictive rules about using FF miles. They also seem to have a phobia about any government employee flying First Class. One thing which was not mentioned was that if an individual's account has miles from personnel flying and government flying, Uncle states that all of the miles belong to him, even though the majority are personnel.

FWIW, I have never heard of anyone chastised for using FF benefits.

It is true that the federal government has very restrictive rules about using FF miles. They also seem to have a phobia about any government employee flying First Class. One thing which was not mentioned was that if an individual's account has miles from personnel flying and government flying, Uncle states that all of the miles belong to him, even though the majority are personnel.

FWIW, I have never heard of anyone chastised for using FF benefits.

My father who is a retired Foregin Service Officer never could understand the rules against First Class Travel. In the old days that was the only way you flew. They changed the rules in the 70's and nobody is allowed to fly First Class. The only exception is when a new US Ambassador arrives at his/her post and when he/her departs the post for the last time. For all other travel he/she is required to sit back in coach. This does not make a good statement having the offical U.S. representative delegated back to coach. This says a lot about the bean counters back in D.C.

Uncle Sam does not want anybody to think that their tax dollars are used for someone living "high on the hog". It doesn't matter that quite often, we are spending our own time flying for him - after normal working hours, weekends, holidays, etc. and such.

Interesting information Tango. The new U. S. Ambassador to Peru was in First Class when we flew down there a couple of years ago, we were in First too, complimtary Gold Elite and companion upgrades on our $400 cheapo RT introductory fares on Continental.

Thanks for your replies...the reason I asked the question was in my town of West Hollywood, California, I've uncovered a practice where some City employees were going out of their way to take certain airlines, usually at HIGHER cost than necessary, to earn FF miles. I have no problem with that if I'm paying for the ticket, but people traveling with the Public's money shouldn't be allowed to do this. I think the only way to stop this kind of taxpayer waste is to prohibit it, and enforce that policy. Jim

Minor point: When I worked for the Federal Government in the 1980s, Cabinet members and certain other very high-ranking officials could fly first-class "for security considerations." Slightly lower-ranking officials REGULARLY have their staffs contact airline government-relations offices to arrange free upgrades. The airlines won't do this for a civil servant, but they will -- or at least would then -- for political appointees who aren't high enough to be entitled for security reasons.

Bruce

Foreign Service Officers these days flying on official travel are "required" to maintain records indicating which miles are the government's and which are personally owned. Of course, most people don't actually do this. Miles earned on official travel can be used to upgrade other official flights, according to the criteria already mentioned. I think there may be a few other exceptions (if you are flying overnight and expected to work the next morning?), but without looking it up, I don't know off the top of my head.

Of course, if employment by the government comes to an end, there is little the government can do to take back any miles earned on official travel, and, as far as I am aware, there is no procedure in place for FSO's to return miles to the department.

MSD

DoggyDaddy stated:
This harkens me back to when I was a temp employee with a city government many years ago. You had to pay for coffee (or join the coffee "club") because the city didn't want the employees to have that luxury. It didn't matter that most offices at the time provided coffee.


------------------
The only difference between ordinary service and extraordinary service is a little EXTRA.

-- Bob

'Fraid so. Take a look at Volume 67, Decisions of the Comptroller General of the United States, page 79 - 83 [67 Comp. Gen. 79 (1987)]. That decision (B-220542) holds five named Agency for International Development employees personally liable to the government for the value of tickets they got by redeeming frequent flyer miles earned from official government travel. That decision also surveys prior decisions by the Comptroller General dating back to 1984, including holdings that employees cannot use such miles for personal travel even if the government was unable to take advantage of the miles before they expired.

here in Australia...

An Australian National Audit Office report on travel at
http://www.anao.gov.au/rptsfull_98/a.../parttwo1.html

covers the salient issues.

cheers Peter










[This message has been edited by ffhound (edited 05-06-2000).]

Interesting and informative responses. There was a prior posting on this topic about four or five months ago, and a link was posted to the Fed law on this topic. Definitely pertinent from my point, since I fly for the Fed three weeks out of every four.

Miles earned while flying on government travel are the property of Los Estados Unidos. There is latitude provided to each government agency as to whether let the person use FF miles at all; or use them for first class upgrades. -Most agencies opt for the latter. On a sidenote to this, one can upgrade to first class on a two class aircraft, but only to business class on a three class aircraft.

The diversity of the posts to this topic is reflective of the varied agency responses. For my agency, we are allowed to use the miles for upgrades. While this is not as flexible as most open market companies, it is a near second. I assure you that being able to fly first class a % of the time is a highly coveted benefit. At least I am in comfort as I contemplate the missed graduations, birthdays, irreplacable childhood moments, father's day, wife's birthday, etc., etc. You get the point as to why most agencies do not mind you using the miles for upgrades, and do remember that I travel three weeks out of every four.

If you mix your personal/business miles, it is assumed that all miles are the governments unless you maintain records to the contrary. I have not heard of anyone ever being nailed on this topic, but one of the prior posts indicated that it has occurred. Interesting. For myself, I will keep using miles to get to first, and not risk any job ramifications by using miles on my own.

[This message has been edited by BR (edited 05-06-2000).]

flyrights: If your information is correct, it sounds like you have the makings of a good newspaper story. You might consider calling the city desk of LA Times and provide what information/proof you have.

As for federal government regs on frequent flyer miles, these are covered under the Code of Federal Regulations (available online). Beyond that each agency is free to determine their own regulations so long as they are no less restrictive than the CFRs.

I deal with the DOD quite often and their people earn FF miles, but cannot use them. However, after they retire, the miles are considered theirs. Of course, this is not publicized.

Letiole's response was accurate and to the point. More power to you if you can assist in pointing out excesses of Fed/St/Local employees abusing their programs. I have seen limited examples of this; and in all cases the supervisor spoke with the person and the behavior ceased.

I believe that you will find that most Govt employees are allowed to use the miles for upgrades alone, and that is what most of us do. It is a nice benefit, and it irritates the majority to see the few who abuse this type of program via personal use and/or selective flight choices to earn points.

Also note that a surprisingly high percentage of agencies on all levels (F/S/L) are self funded (mine included). As such, they do not rely on public funds, and are funded via charging for services. -Not via taxpayer dollars. Very similar to the approach an audit firm would take. Contrary to popular opinion, these agencies do not rely on public funds. Generally speaking, these self funded agencies are the ones which allow employees to use miles for upgrades.

Booking higher fares for the miles isn't just a problem with government employees - lots of corporations have discounts with one or another airline, but if it's not the employee's preferred airline then the employee has an incentive to find a "work-around." I don't have a problem with the employee (corporate or government) booking a different airline as long as the fare is the same (or even less!); I realize that the employer may lose a bit in this case because the volume on the "preferred" airline is reduced, but I'm willing to accept that as a "cost" of keeping employees happy and willing to travel (often outside of 9-to-5 hours).

BR is correct in his post. I worked for Dept of Defense for 12 years and was on the road (ok, in the air) via commercial carrier several times per year. The JTR was amended in the late 80's to address upgrades to try to rein in an almost unenforceable situation. I am no longer with Uncle, but always kept spreadsheets showing which miles were mine and which were theirs. The miles do belong to the government unless you can prove otherwise. So, I always upgraded on official business trips.

I usually insisted upon making my own arrangements because the travel people don't give a **** about your wishes. And since the travel came out of my budget, I always looked for the best fare! I once drove to Phoenix in order to fly SW to San Antonio, saving me (you) a couple hundred bucks, even after paying me 31 cents a mile to drive rt to PHX.

My fondest travel memory is going from Tucson to Kansas City in 1996 for the National Recreation and Park Assn. convention. I was on a deeply discounted fare on HP and upgraded to F, where I sat up front while a Colonel sat in coach. Then, when getting to Missori in the worst blizzard they had in recent memory, I went to Hertz where I had booked a double upgrade from mid-size. How disappointed was I when the only car they had to give me was a Lincoln Towncar! Well, later in the week I gave two Colonels a ride to the airport. I didn't say a word about the upgrades or the only car business, but apparently I was the talk of the town at the Pentagon because as soon as I returned home my commander was smoking at the ears because he had to answer about this "little GS-11 driving a @$%*&^@! Towncar on government orders! Still laugh about that one four years later.

most coach air prices are about the same if purchased 21 days or more in advance. if the slow moving government cannot plan far enough ahead, the traveler should not be forced to take the low price cattle call airline because some idiot couldnt plan ahead. i cannot imagine anything in west hollywood that would need such prompt attention that it could not be put off for a month

It's annoying to see that governments and corporations can get away with what I want when it comes to FF miles....which is if they paid for the ticket, they can have the miles....while my preferred airline gives me as an "individual" no rights, nothing at all, and insists that the miles go to the user of the ticket.

addressing the last post first..only the person flying can get the miles but once you have them you can use them for anyone you want..at least on "my" airline.

As for the gov't workers: I don't think it's fare for anyone spending as much time on an airplane as top tier members do to not be able to upgrade, no matter who their employer is and as for keeping the miles, that person was the one with their butt in the seat spending time away from home and family etc, let them have the blasted miles. Just my opinion http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by RDURES1 (edited 06-13-2000).]

As a low level State Employee in Tennessee, I was allowed to keep miles that I earned on two different trips that I took years ago though the policy is probably different for higher officials since they would likely travel more by air. Over the years, the travel regulations here have been tightened and if was allowed to travel by air again, I would be required to fly the cheapest carrier.

The Canadian position (federal):

1) Employees of the Treasury Board (most public servants) are prohibited from collecting frequent flyer miles for official travel. This includes personal travel paid for by the Crown (such as home leave under the Foreign Service Directives).

2) Appointees of the Governor-in-Council and Members of Parliament are not employees of the Treasury Board, and are not covered by TBS travel policy.

M.P.'s and Senators are required, by Parliamentary rules, to accumulate and use frequent flyer miles for official travel.
Members of the RCMP and the Canadian Forces are covered by the travel policies of each of those forces.

Judges, tribunal members, and other GIC appointees are governed by the rules of the agency to which they are appointed.

3) F travel is strictly prohibited, except for diplomatic couriers, or as expressly authorized by a Minister. Ministers are accountable for these authorizations. Ministers may not authorize their own F class travel.

The Prime Minister and the Governor-General do not fly commercially, for security reasons.

4) J class travel can be authorized for all segments over 9 hours, all direct flights without deplaning over 12 hours, and all travel in excess of 14 hours in one day. J class will be authorized for the entire routing if there is no incremental cost (i.e. on YOW - YVR - HKG).

5) J class travel is not authorized if the employee travels via a circuitous routing (e.g. any routing other than the approved routing), even if there is no incremental cost. So you get J class for YOW-YVR-HKG, but you only get Y class for YOW-LAX-HKG.

6) Theoretically, J class may be authorized for members of the DM group (deputy ministers), the EX group (management), and professional groups which parallel the EX bands (eg, the LA-2B's and higher) for travel over 90 minutes. However, this policy has been under suspension for a very long time, now.

Lot's of food for thought here.

First, Randy is correct; enforcement varies. I once worked for the DOD as a civilian (GS-10). I flew periodically on commercial carriers. Often, I flew on "my" carrier. It would have been easy enough to earn, and keep, the miles. However, the penalty if caught was severe enough to keep me honest. I observed a number of folks who had more to lose than I, who chose to keep the miles. Good on them!

I will say that public funds should not be squandered on higher fares, or "manipulated" itineraries, but if you are flying the best route and the best fare on the government contracted carrier, let the employee keep the miles. It costs the government nothing. The ticket cost is the same if you keep the miles (and redeem them) or if you leave them unclaimed.

On a personal note, it fries my *** that I am paying even the lowliest government employee to spend one second worrying about this. It is not the government's business, outside of the parameters mentioned above.

Also, as Randy noted, miles are awarded on government fares.

I have flown plenty of evenings and weekends for both the private and public sector. Seems to me that the one whose butt is planted in the seat deserves the miles. An easy way to take away some of the pain.

Also seems the cost of administering any sort of compliance monitoring program would have no fiscal benefit. Plus, you will always have the clever few who beat you anyway.

We do still live in a representative democracy, correct. (Yes, I know we live in a republic). Maybe a grass roots effort from all of us could get the government out of the mileage monitoring business. None of their **** business. For my taxpayer dollar, I say they have better things to do.

I can speak from personal experience; our public servants and uniformed personnel are overworked and underpaid and still perform admirably. Give them the bennies.

End o'rant! Thank you all for putting up with me.

Way to go FLYAAWAY.. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

OOPS, I didn't realize this was a 6 year old thread. Sorry!

Isn't getting passengers to buy more expensive fares (to be paid for by someone else, here, local government) one of the big reasons there are frequent flyer programs.

Personally, I have a rule (usually followed) to not pay a penny more for anything to get miles. Of course, I pay for my travel myself.

UAL's recent devaluation would have hurt a lot more if I had actually paid for my UAL miles

One of the major accomplishments of the GOP congress was to eliminate the onerous FF rules. Under current law, all government employees are permitted to keep and use their miles as they see fit. Also, the restrictions on travel in C and F have been modified. Employees may use their own miles or comp or paid upgrades at their own expense on any flight, including government travel. Of course, use of government funds for travel in C or F is strictly prohibited, with the exception of 12+ hour overseas flights.

This thread is hopelessly outdated, full of no-longer-correct info, and should be closed.