Back to back ticketing (again??)
 

I have booked the following with web specials fare (which suppose to be out Fri or Sat and return Mon or Tue.)

On Canadian Airlines:
Using Ticket #1 Outbound:
Fri, Oct 22 YYZ - YVR 19:15

Using Ticket #2 Outbound:
Sat, Oct 23 YVR - YYZ 15:00

Using Ticket #2 Inbound:
Mon, Oct 25 YYZ - YVR 08:45

Using Ticket #1 Inbound:
Mon, Oct 25 YVR - YYZ 15:00

Th total fare of this comes to about 550 Cdn, but for 9000 status miles, I believe it's quite worth it. However, when I first inquire about doing this, the agent said no one is going to willing to do this unless you call back 2 seperate times and do 2 seperate tickets.

I further ask her whether this violate any rules, she remained silent. Asked her whether this will cause any problems at the airport, she said no as long as I use up all tickets. Finally, ask her to explain to me what back to back ticketing is, she said never mention that over the phone to an airline agent, if I want to find out, then I'll have to call a travel agent to find out which I find strange.

Anyways, just want to know whether the above is considered back to back, I am planning to use all portions of the ticket. If I violate any rules, what are they. And how would they usually catch you?

I just want to make sure everything is perfectly fine before I do the ticketing. Don't want them to end up making pay the difference for a full fare.

Regards,
Empress

IMHO it does look like back to back ticketing. The classic example of back to back ticketing I've heard of is a business traveller going to the same location two weeks in a row (as I am doing). So for example, I'm doing these trips soon:
(W1= Week 1, W2 = Week 2)

Ticket 1: W1-Sun X-Y W1-Fri Y-X
Ticket 2: W2-Sun X-Y W2-Fri Y-X

Both are very expensive fares since there is no Saturday stay. I could do this:

Ticket 1: W1-Sun X-Y W2-Fri Y-X
Ticket 2: W1-Fri Y-X W2-Sun X-Y

This would be considerably cheaper since both flights have a Saturday night stay. Basically I switched around my point of origin to get the cheapest fare and flew right back to my 'real' home to get the cheapest fare.

Hence, this is similar to what you are doing and I do believe is back-to-back by airline rules. I personally wouldn't risk it, but your mileage may vary (literally http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif)..

Good luck either way you go.

BTW I believe this may actually be nested tickting than back to back ticketing -- both not allowed by airline rules. Whatever it is called it's frowned on by the airlines. They might cancel your second ticket, or not give you the miles, or worse charge you the difference in cost of two full fare tickets.



[This message has been edited by dg1 (edited 10-20-1999).]

A big issue is the intent of the passenger.

I don't know Canadian's rule, but most airlines are the same on back-to-back ticketing. Here is United's rule:

---------------------------------------
Use of coupons from two or more tickets issued at round trip fares for the purpose of circumventing applicable tariff
rules (such as advance purchase / minimum stay requirement) is not permitted.

United agents and authorized travel agents are prohibited from issuing tickets, commonly referred to as "back to back
ticketing", under such circumstances when there is obvious intent to abuse and/or misuse restricted round trip fares.

Agents found issuing such tickets may be liable for the difference between the fare paid and the fare for transportation
used. United Airlines has the right to deny transportation to passengers found utilizing tickets in this manner unless
the difference between the fare paid and the fare for the transportation used is collected.
----------------------------------------

Now if you booked the Ticket 1 flight first
YYZ-YVR as Sat - mon roundtrip, thats clearly legal. Lets say you have meetings at YVR on Sat and on Monday.

Let's say you then find out that on Sun you need to be at YYZ for a meeting. You then book another ticket, this one YVR-YYZ Sun - Mon.

You intent is not to book 2 flights as one trip to circumvent the applicable tariff, you plans simply changed. How can anyone say differently. You simply booked another flight to get you to the meeting.

The classic back-to-back ticketing, typically involves throwing away the 2 unused coupons, which you arent doing.

Note: United's phrase "Obvious Intent"
Also, it says United agents are prohibited from issuing such tickets, so if they do issue they, then clearly there is no "obvious intent" If the airline issues you both tickets at the same time, then how can they claim they aren't legal? If a trained Airline ticket agent issued it, then how can there be "obvious Intent". If it was "obvious" then the airline agent would have noticed, duh http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

If you want to see other US airline's rules a great web site is:
http://www.onetravel.com/rules/rules.cfm

Particularly for elite flyers, there sometimes seems to be a "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy on back to backs, especially if you don't involve a travel agent (creating a double-comission).

IMO,the res. agent was trying to do you a favor as best she could with supervisors hanging around. Your "friend" should accept the res. agent's advice and QUIETLY make a go of it.

BTW, sometimes the FT Edit feature comes in REAL handy if one cares what airline lurkers may read on this board (file that under Even Paranoids Have Enemies)...hint, hint, hint...

Empress - the Canadian agent went out of her way to even explaining what you're doing is okay as long as you call back twice.

Airlines are not supposed to promote back-to-back ticketing and I am surprised the agent went as far as she did. Remember that calls might be monitored for "quality assurance" and that her job is on the line if she went to explain what a back to back ticket is so that you'd have ideas on how to save money instead of buying 2 normal full fare tickets.

Better speak to a travel agent whose call is not monitored! Better yet - since y ou already know all about back-to-back ticketing, just go ahead and do it.

This is not back-to-back ticketing. Don't worry. All you're doing is legally buying tickets. You scared the agent by mentioning those words. No one has ever been hassled for doing what you're doing.

Empress: It's usually better to err on the side of caution, so do listen to all this good advice.

However, I have to go along with QuitetLion on this. I have been told by corporate travel that our example DOES constitute back-to-back ticketing, and I've been told that it DOESN'T. I asked Delta airlines about this and their answer was that it does NOT. However, this would not constitute a legally binding endorsement, so I do urge caution.

For what it's worth, here's what happened to me once. It should give you some peace of mind if you decide to do the cheaper ticketing (but again, I won't make a blanket statement saying that this is the way all airlines operate all the time):

Ticket 1: VPS to PHL Mar. 14
Ticket 2: PHL to VPS Mar. 19
Ticket 2: VPS to PHL Mar. 21
Ticket 1: PHL to VPS Mar 26.

OK? Actually, I had another set of tickets for the following 2 weeks also. Enough tickets to make a pretty good poker hand. Whichis where the trouble began.

I walk in to the VPS airport on Mar. 14 and pull out a handful of tickets. I hand the agent what I thought was the correct ticket, Ticket #1. Agent takes the first coupon and gives me a boarding pass. I board and we take off. Arranging my tickets in the air, I discover to my horror that I had given the agent Ticket #2! He had taken the first coupon, PHL to VPS Mar. 19 and given me, on Mar. 14, a boarding pass for the Mar. 14 flight VPS to PHL.

So, now I am stuck with a coupon to get back to VPS valid Mar 26. And an usused coupon VPS - PHL for Mar. 14. Neither of which was going to help me get home PHL-VPS on Friday, Mar. 19. With me so far?

SO...comes Friday, Mar. 19 and I go to the Delta counter, hand the Delta agent both tickets, and try to explain what happened. This took a while. I even used a blank slip of paper to represent the (now used) Mar. 19 coupon which was used to GET TO Philly.

See the scenario? The Delta agent has BOTh tickets in his hand. Along with my explanation of how the whole thing pieced together to cover both weeks. So, guess what happens?

He takes the Monday, Mar. 14 coupon (VPS-PHL), does some magic on the keyboard, and gives me a boarding pass for this flight, Friday, Mar. 19. No extra charge. No $75 change fee. Not even a scowll.

Sorry about the length, but it WAS complicated. The point is, is Delta was going to consider this back-to-back ticketing, well, there you were, they had both tickets in hand and could have crucified me. They didn't. They didn't even go "tsk, tsk" at my dumbness in handing the agent at VPS the wrong ticket!

So, honestly, Empress, I personally wouldn't worry about it.

(And yeah, I know, they're supposed to check these things, but *I* was the one who started everything by handing in the wrong ticket...I don't expect everyone to protect me from my own mistakes. It's nice when they do, but I certainly don't feel that they are under any obligation to do so. The error was mine and had there been any penalty, I was willing to pay it.)

Does it mean I should not do it if I don't have to?
The sole purpose of this two trips are because they have specials for YYZ-YVR. And I just needed to make a quick stop in YVR, so figure this would be a good way.

However, if it is not legal, I wouldn't
risk it.

Let's say I do YVR - YYZ on Mon instead of Tue, will they produce more problems?

How would the points go...are they posted by computers or manually? If not computer, I am sure they'll get suspicious...

Regards,
Empress

just DO it - best bet is to buy it from the airline themselves. forget your worries. http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

(it is NEVER illegal - it could be against internal airline rules, which, as a costumer you are really not supposed to know better then the airline you are buying the tickets from).

Alright, folks, listen up becuase I'm about to reveal the one philosophy that will make you rich, happy and content. Remember this axiom and your world will soon fall into place:

It is easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission.

Learn it, live it, love it.

It's definitely not illegal; just one of those rules airlines want to make us all abide by in the 'contract of carriage' etc. In the US passenger bill of rights they wanted to make this explicitly legal and OK, but then Congress caved with the airline's version. Dunno what Canada thinks.

For the record, I've had the opportunity to do the same thing twice and passed it up -- but then again I am working on a corporate expense account which will reimburse me either way.

At the very least I would suggest buying the tickets separately from different agents. Good luck; selective enforcement of rules is one of the ways airlines engender loyalty...

10 years later and I have never experienced a problem as long as you use up all the coupons. The higher your status, then it is even less likely that they will hassle you!

Like I say to my friends, you can always book the other "back to back" on airline B and then airline A loses some of your business.

Just go ahead and do it (but do keep your tickets straight). It can be embarrassing but not fatal to hand in the wrong ticket of the pair for the journey you are on.