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-   -   Chris Elliott: "Frequent flier programs are a scam" (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/milesbuzz/1409188-chris-elliott-frequent-flier-programs-scam.html)

turtleisland Nov 20, 2012 11:59 am

I'm glad most people agree with him.

AlohaDaveKennedy Nov 20, 2012 12:07 pm

Booo! The airlines say we don't own points, so if we don't own them they have no value and us in the 47% club can't be taxed on them.:D

How did that old Marvelettes tune go -

(Wait) oh yes,
Wait a minute, Mister Taxman
(Wait) wait, Mister Taxman

You in the 53% can keep your currency. For now. Next year the taxman is coming to take you away.:D

"Points are nothing more than a currency. They can be made worthless (like if a airline were to liquidate) but so can real currencies. The question is if there's value to the points and surely the points are definitively worth >0."

akcae Nov 20, 2012 12:42 pm


Originally Posted by turtleisland (Post 19718383)
I'm glad most people agree with him.

:D

CPRich Nov 20, 2012 1:53 pm

I would agree the "free flight" with a credit card (that has a fee) is a very bad idea (not sure it's a scam, but it is misleading), for all but the FF ninjas that he specifically calls out in the disclaimer.

The leap from that to "all FF programs are bad" is a huge non sequitur, with which I don't agree.

mrtibbs1999 Nov 20, 2012 2:02 pm

I love articles like this. Cause a big fuss and get lots of attention. Utter nonsense though. I've collected over 250k avios in my first month following the tips on here and headforpoints and already been to Prague with my whole family. Not bad for less than £200 including the 250k points. I have calculated i will have a million by February and I have already booked to go to Moscow in F. If it's a scam, I should get ripped off more often!

srdshelly Nov 20, 2012 3:34 pm

He is just not credible or knowledgeable on this topic. I agree with him when he writes about the TSA, but you can safely ignore anything he says about frequent flyer programs. His advice is mainly for the people who are really clueless - they, perhaps, should pay attention to him. The sad thing is he assumes that's most of his readers most of the time.

srdshelly Nov 20, 2012 3:48 pm

Ok, my travel plans for next year are as follows:
1) Jamaica
2) the Mediterranean
3) North Asia and Hawaii
4) Spain
5) the Mideast

All but #4 are already reserved and paid with low level frequent flyer miles, about 250,000 total, with reasonable taxes (no BA fuel surcharges in the bunch). Sure, I'll have to pay other expenses during the trips, but some hotel nights are also free, and others I can control by staying in more modest properties and using Priceline. It is not hard to earn 250,000 miles a year, and many do much more than that.

What the frequent flyer programs do is enable people like me with ordinary income but good credit to travel as though they were wealthy. Sure, you have to be knowledgeable, but the information to do it is readily available for free on the Internet - this forum being an important contributor. I am not an elite anything, and I honesty don't think Christopher realizes you don't have to be to make these programs work for you, if you are simply willing to put in a little effort.

cruisr Nov 20, 2012 4:17 pm

Well, the more people who read his article and back off the more reward seats for those that know how to play the game. My family and friends think I'm nuts until they are in J or F going to NZ, Asia and Europe on rewards.

fti Nov 20, 2012 4:57 pm


Originally Posted by StartinSanDiego (Post 19717642)
It seems like a good segment of the population gets the card and:

1) Doesn't really know how to cash in an award (looks for peak travel season, defined dates, multiple people, a month ahead of said planned trip)

2) Gets the card, uses it here and there, is disappointed in mile accrual. (It takes xxx years to get to an award) I have a friend with an AA card that wanted to go to France... "Oh," she says to me, "I have TONS of miles! I've been using this card for years!" Turns out she doesn't even have the 40K needed for r/t off peak. That was a stark realization for her.

3) Has a British Airways card and realizes, "Hey, I might as well just buy a ticket"

4) Pays renewal fees year after year without cashing in an award "Hey, I might as well just buy a ticket".

5) Lets miles expire -- concludes the whole thing was a major "FAIL"

6) Doesn't want to change a thing in order to play the game... won't use credit cards for all purchases, won't order online, won't get a second card for spouse or self, won't read MMS about how to do it, etc. Wants free miles and redemptions to be easy...

Exactly. The "kettle" as they are often referred to here just don't know how to play the frequent flyer and credit card game. Even some people who I help coach are too overeager to play the game and play it wrong. It is unfortunate. Then you get people willing to pay 40K-60K for a round trip domestic ticket that can be purchased for $300.

In reality, frequent flyer programs for the average lay person are a bad idea. Cost is high (credit card annual fees among other things) and reward is low.

scvrusher Nov 20, 2012 5:01 pm

The more that articles like this are written, the more that this community prospers. :D

Doc Savage Nov 20, 2012 5:03 pm

http://hill-kleerup.org/blog/wp/wp-c.../joe-isuzu.jpg

mnscout Nov 20, 2012 5:04 pm

It's been a while since I read anything this stupid.

Andy2 Nov 20, 2012 5:25 pm


Originally Posted by mnscout (Post 19720152)
It's been a while since I read anything this stupid.

Unless, as Aloha Dave Kennedy alluded, you are trying to place a value on the miles for tax purposes (I realize that most of the time they are nontaxable but several other threads detail situations in which nontaxability is not so assured). Then the points the author makes are perhaps a bit more valid and more appreciated. I have never been completely convinced that miles and points have value in most situations and I do play all of the games that everyone else does and I do redeem them for international premium cabin space.

If I were to take a week vacation and sit in my back yard and relax, I might spend $100 on lemonade. If I redeem my miles and hotel points and pay $150 in international taxes and fees, as well as spending $1,000 on overseas cash expenditures, do I really have economic benefit just because the first-class flight and hotel might have cost $5,000? I would never have spent the $5,000 to book the trip if I had to pay cash. In fact I spent $1,150vacationing instead of the $100 that I would have spent if I had just stayed home, which is actually more. How does one place a value on vacation enjoyment? What if it rains the whole time?

I always scoff at the blogs like MMS that seem to value the miles based on the cash price of trips that would not be booked if it were not for miles. I kind of liked the article. It points out that that good and realistic arguments exist to place little or no value on miles and points.

Thunderroad Nov 20, 2012 5:26 pm

Lots of stupid statements in the article, but it does inadvertently hit one nail on the head to the benefit of lots of us at FT: Many or most folks have trouble cashing in their miles/points, or don't even bother to do so, or both. I'm certainly not saying this is a good thing. But certainly one reason there are so many bonus offers out there is that the cc companies, airlines and hotels calculate that many or most miles and points will never be redeemed.

mnscout Nov 20, 2012 8:27 pm


Originally Posted by Andy2 (Post 19720267)
Unless, as Aloha Dave Kennedy alluded, you are trying to place a value on the miles for tax purposes (I realize that most of the time they are nontaxable but several other threads detail situations in which nontaxability is not so assured). Then the points the author makes are perhaps a bit more valid and more appreciated. I have never been completely convinced that miles and points have value in most situations and I do play all of the games that everyone else does and I do redeem them for international premium cabin space.

If I were to take a week vacation and sit in my back yard and relax, I might spend $100 on lemonade. If I redeem my miles and hotel points and pay $150 in international taxes and fees, as well as spending $1,000 on overseas cash expenditures, do I really have economic benefit just because the first-class flight and hotel might have cost $5,000? I would never have spent the $5,000 to book the trip if I had to pay cash. In fact I spent $1,150vacationing instead of the $100 that I would have spent if I had just stayed home, which is actually more. How does one place a value on vacation enjoyment? What if it rains the whole time?

I always scoff at the blogs like MMS that seem to value the miles based on the cash price of trips that would not be booked if it were not for miles. I kind of liked the article. It points out that that good and realistic arguments exist to place little or no value on miles and points.

In your hypothetical situation I'd rather sit in my backyard then travel. From purely monetary point of view you're right. No one would argue that people who don't like to travel don't need miles. However, I had traveled on my own dime way before I knew anything about the miles. So for the likes of me, wasting my vacation time in a backyard is not really an option.

Had the author made that distinction, I wouldn't have argued. But he insists that FF programs are bad for everyone except a few "chosen", and that's just as stupid as stupid goes. I ain't no "chosen", yet I've saved $$$$ on doing things I would've done anyway. Well, except splurging for the first class. That I wouldn't:).

Now, I am not a business traveler. I agree that really frequent business travelers may view those things differently. But many of the situations he describes are easily remedied. For example, don't buy into this "loyalty" thingy. When you have miles and points spread out among different airlines and alliances, you are less dependent on just one player in the field. I realize it's contrary to what the airlines expect from you, but well, tough luck! You gotta be a bit of a contrarian in order to be successful in this game.

Seriously, the gist of what this guy's saying is that FF programs are bad for people who want a one-click solution. Fine, we've always known that. Next!


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