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-   -   Legal question regarding miles (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/milesbuzz/1294935-legal-question-regarding-miles.html)

MikeFromTokyo Dec 25, 2011 10:17 am

Your uncle can certainly gift award tickets to trusted family and friends. Any other gifts exchanged between family and friends would not concern the airlines.

Steve in Olympia Dec 25, 2011 10:19 am


Originally Posted by dhuey (Post 17689545)
Yes, illegal is a vague term that can be used narrowly to mean criminal. Unlawful is normally used to mean in violation of a contractual or civil duty, and that describes the sale of miles.

You are misusing these terms. It is not "unlawful" to violate a contract. It is "unlawful" to violate a statute (and that violation may be either criminal or civil, depending on the statute).

While the failure to fulfill a contract may have civil remedies, that doesn't make it unlawful.

An airline may prohibit the sale of miles, that doesn't make it an unlawful act.

mahasamatman Dec 25, 2011 10:22 am


Originally Posted by Middle_Seat (Post 17689501)
There is a difference between "not permitted" (by the airline) and "illegal" (against the law).

Illegal can also mean "against the rules". Have you ever seen a football player get arrested for "illegal use of hands" or "illegal formation"?

dhuey Dec 25, 2011 10:29 am


Originally Posted by Steve in Olympia (Post 17689602)
You are misusing these terms. It is not "unlawful" to violate a contract. It is "unlawful" to violate a statute (and that violation may be either criminal or civil, depending on the statute).

While the failure to fulfill a contract may have civil remedies, that doesn't make it unlawful.

An airline may prohibit the sale of miles, that doesn't make it an unlawful act.

I think unlawful is properly used to describe breach of contract because it exposes one to civil liability in largely the same way that non-criminal torts do. Wouldn't you agree that patent infringement is unlawful? What difference does it really make to the defendant if the source of that civil liability is statutory or contractual?

Middle_Seat Dec 25, 2011 10:31 am


Originally Posted by Clincher (Post 17689544)
I am sure he could travel to Hawaii in business class. I've see plenty of older folks traveling. You're never too old.

For the sake of one of my free-spirited relatives, how I wish that were true!

DCBob Dec 25, 2011 10:43 am


Originally Posted by BillyBaloney (Post 17689443)
So simply do a cash gift + some item = similar to scalping tickets for a show. Cash plus a bag of potato chips...or a vase...or a coffee cup. I have heard this is a way around it.

Now mind you, I am not a lawyer and this should not be construed as legal advice. Especially from a man named "Baloney."

Good thing you are not a lawyer giving legal advice, or you would be guilty of malpractice. These are disguised sales and also violate the contract between the customer and the airline. They don't work to get around the scalping laws or airline rules. Period.

dhuey Dec 25, 2011 10:52 am


Originally Posted by DCBob (Post 17689676)
Good thing you are not a lawyer giving legal advice, or you would be guilty of malpractice. These are disguised sales and also violate the contract between the customer and the airline. They don't work to get around the scalping laws or airline rules. Period.

I wouldn't even say they are disguised sales. The seller is promising to include the supposedly free item (the real item of value). It's a silly pretense.

Steve in Olympia Dec 25, 2011 11:07 am


Originally Posted by dhuey (Post 17689637)
I think unlawful is properly used to describe breach of contract because it exposes one to civil liability in largely the same way that non-criminal torts do. Wouldn't you agree that patent infringement is unlawful? What difference does it really make to the defendant if the source of that civil liability is statutory or contractual?

I would agree that patent infringement is "unlawful" ..... because patent infringement violates a law (the U.S. Patent Act, Title 35 U.S.C.). Precisely my point.

The source of the civil liability may not make any difference to the defendant, but that doesn't make it "unlawful." The violation of a User Agreement with an airline is not an "unlawful act."

We could also have a long discussion as to whether the commission of a tort is an "unlawful act" ..... but we would certainly bore those few FTers that we haven't already bored. But, dhuey, I wholeheartedly appreciate your comments that we should all be very careful about how loosely we use terms like "illegal" and "unlawful," and wish you the best on this Christmas morning. Cheers!

skynerd Dec 25, 2011 1:26 pm


Originally Posted by Steve in Olympia (Post 17689763)
I would agree that patent infringement is "unlawful" ..... because patent infringement violates a law (the U.S. Patent Act, Title 35 U.S.C.). [...]


"A patentee shall have remedy by civil action for infringement of his patent." --United States Code, title chapter 29, section 281, according to http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/us...1----000-.html

Unlawful. That which is contrarary to, prohibited or unauthorized by law. That which is not lawful. The acting contrary to, or in defiance of the law; disobeying or disregarding the law. Term is equivalent to "without excuse of justrification." While not implying the element of criminality, it is broad enough to include it. See Crime; Criminal.

Term as applied to agreements and the like, denotes they are ineffectual in law, for they involve acts which, though not positively forbidden, are disapproved by law and are therefore not recognized as ground for legal rights because they are against public policy. See Illegal.

--Black's Law Dictionary with Pronunciations, Abridged Sixth Edition, Centenial Edition (1891-1991), page 1068
However, I think that the idea that "unlawful" does not always mean "criminal" should not be expected to be known universally among FlyerTalk readers, many of whom live in different countries. I think that using "unlawful" to fool people into thinking that something is criminal should be called out as inviting the question of why the arguer is trying to sow confusion rather than clarity. So, thank you to those who have pointed this out.

dhuey Dec 25, 2011 2:34 pm

Steve, I sense that what you're getting at is how breaching a contract is not inherently wrong. If so, I completely agree. I like to use unlawful to convey to non-lawyers the idea that something they are doing or failing to do might get them into non-criminal legal trouble. FWIW, I see nothing immoral about selling miles.

swag Dec 25, 2011 3:24 pm

I'll concur with the majority here that it's not against the law, but is against most program rules. The penalty, should he be caught selling them, is likely to be simply a forfeiture of the ticket and his account balance.

While miles can't be sold, they often can be inherited. Rules vary by program. They can also sometimes be donated to charity.

He should also consider non-travel uses of the miles. He might be able to treat himself to a nice suite at a downtown hotel, the next time he goes out for an evening. Or redeem for merchandise, usually not the best value but one way to use the miles within the program rules.

Brendan Dec 25, 2011 5:58 pm

In summary, the sale of miles or award tickets violates the rules of the airlines but not any law. If your uncle sells his miles (or U do on his behalf,) it should be to a friend, relative, neighbor or business contact who could reasonably receive such a 'gift.'
Example: "My teammate/ co-worker & I got these tickets for Christmas from his uncle."

sunk818 Dec 25, 2011 7:47 pm

In the event of death, can points be transferred to those designated in the will as an inheritance?

Some grey area ideas:

Sign up for credit cards that match your uncle's program type using your uncle's mailing address. Then your uncle could transfer to the new cc. I read this is possible with Amex SPg as log both cc reside at the same mailing address.

If your uncle buys someone a ticket and is paid cash, no one but the two parties would know.

Checks are traceable to a certain degree since even if you cash it, the check would require your uncle's signature to cash.

immiLawyer Dec 26, 2011 10:46 am


Originally Posted by i_gtgo (Post 17689265)
I had a question regarding my Uncle's miles. He is retired, very old and has millions and millions of miles in several programs. However he has no intent of ever using these miles to travel as he is too old. In this case he would love to sell his miles for some extra cash but that would be considered illegal (I think). Is it possible he can use these miles for the travel of family and friends and then charge them a fee for using his miles?

Thanks.

I have a tough time believing this is even a topic here.

If your relative is that old (and probably coming to terms with his mortality), he has three options here:

1. use the miles himself (as he chooses)
2. use the miles to allow friends/family to travel (as gifts)
3. don't do anything, and the miles COULD pass to whomever will take from his Estate

All this other stuff about 'selling,' gifting, etc., is irrelevant. If he wishes to condition the use of his redeemable miles upon gratuities from friends/family, so what? That is not a topic for discussion outside the family/friend relationship.

The carriers don't care about intra-family transfers.

dhuey Dec 26, 2011 6:55 pm


Originally Posted by immiLawyer (Post 17693307)
I have a tough time believing this is even a topic here.

* * *

All this other stuff about 'selling,' gifting, etc., is irrelevant. If he wishes to condition the use of his redeemable miles upon gratuities from friends/family, so what? That is not a topic for discussion outside the family/friend relationship.

It's easy for us FTers to lose sight of how others (indeed, the vast majority of others) don't think about these questions much. The OP has a reasonable question and it's a legitimate topic.


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