planning an international vacation
 

hello everyone, i am new to this forum and just signed up today and i am really excited that i found you guys. if i am posting in the wrong section please excuse me and kindly direct me to the appropriate sections.
i am a business owner for the past 9 years. i don't really own credit cards because i don't believe in carrying a lot of debt. i have been using checks and a Unionbank mastercard debit card. about a month ago one of my customers told me about how he used his Amex points to pay for his entire vacation to Bali. the more he was talking the more interested i became. now i just want to know if this is even possible. heres what i want to do
in december of 2013 i am planning a trip to vietnam for my wife and son. i want to fly business class because economy is aweful on a 17 hour flight.
my question is which card would give me the best chance of making my dream of a getting 3 business class tickets for an international flight using airlines points.
also does anyone know which bank's debit card offers airlines rewards? also i charge about $400,000 worth of supplies using checks and my debit card every year. is it even possible to earn enough points between now and dec. 2013 to get those business class tickets?

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Welcome to FT!

First, let me disabuse you of the idea that everyone who has lots of credit cards has lots of debt. I expect that there are many people here on FT who hold several credit cards, but always pay their bills in full every month to avoid paying interest.

It is impossible to predict whether you will be able to secure three Business Class award seats for travel to Vietnam in December, 2013. But you can certainly accrue the miles necessary to obtain those tickets, should they in fact become available. Obtaining credit cards with large sign-up bonuses, and then charging a lot on those cards is one way. Another way is to put $200K in a BankDirect "Mileage Checking" account, which would net you 240K AA miles in one year. (Note: BankDirect is imposing a $12/month service fee on this account beginning in January, 2012; but if you can keep $200K on deposit, the fee may be worthwhile.)

From which city will you be departing? To which Vietnamese city will you be flying?

thanks for the quick reponse. i am here in so cal so i wil be flying out of lax and headed to saigon. is been a while since i've been back to my homeland. i want my 2 year old to meet his grandparents before they pass away. the grandparents are pretty old and i really don't know how much time we have left with them. and i have a long 2 1/2 week vacation during dec. of 2013. being a business owner its almost impossible to get vacation so i need to make this as meaningful as possible. which cards do you recommend?

If you want to use credit cards, such as SPG AMEX, Citibank AA card, UA Visa, etc., and put $400,000 worth of items on them, you will be able to earn hundreds of thousands of miles. If you want to use a debit card, I don't believe any debit cards still earn miles (anyone can correct me). If you can pay off your credit card every month, then the only difference between a credit card and debit card is the grace period before paying (unless you lack self-control), maybe you just need to change your view towards credit cards.

thank you but, pardon my ingorance. i'm not too familiar with credit cards. whats a spg card?

SPG stands for Starwood preferred Guest. This Hotel group has an American express card which is generally considered one of the best cards for racking up miles. This is because the points you earn from using this card can be turned into airline miles with many different airlines (usually for a discounted amount of points) and/or it could be used for hotel stays with in the family of hotels.

American Express might also be a good choice for you as usually you are expected to pay off the entire balance each month which fits well with your outlook on debt. While you may pay a higher annual fee to American express to carry this card if you pay on time you don't have to pay finance charges (interest).

I am also a small business owner and I spent roughly what you do per year or maybe more. I can assure you I always fly business class or better and I travel a lot. Once you start earning this perk for what you are already spending anyway you will be kicking yourself for not doing it sooner!

great advice, the more i talk to you guys the more sense it makes to get a cc. i mean i'm already spending the money on day to day expenses. why not get rewarded. since i don't use a lot of cc, my credit score is very weak or young. i usually pay everything with cash. i mean i'm asian and we have a joke here that asians only deal with cash. someone told me that amex wont give me a cc without a long credit history. is this true?

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Don't know how likely you are to be approved for any particular credit card, but the SPG Amex would give you the most bang for your (spending) buck.

Other cards to consider are the Citi/AA personal Visa and Amex, as well as the Citi/AA business card (I forget if it's a Visa or an Amex). Although these cards only earn one AA mile per dollar charged, they often have substantial bonus-point offers for signing up, with waiver of the first year's annual fee. Note that this Amex card is actually issued by Citibank, not by American Express.

Look for threads here in the MilesBuzz! forum for information about current sign-up bonuses for the Citi/AA cards, as well as the SPG Amex card.

By 2013, AA's partner carriers to SGN should be Cathay Pacific, Japan Airlines, and Malaysian. AA currently requires 55,000 miles one way for a Business Class award between LAX and SGN. AA partner Finnair also provides seasonal service between Helsinki and SGN, but because of award-routing rules, going via HEL would require more miles than going via the Pacific.

i must admit, i am fascinated with the idea of having something like an all expense paid vacation just for doing everyday things like paying my vendors. i mean i had heard about it in the past, but it was almost like catching bigfoot. you heard about it but not actually knowing anyone who's seen one. so it is amazing to hear all the stories from you guys who have actually done it. please keep the advice coming. i'm like a sponge right now and i'm absorbing everything you guys have to say. does anyone know if amex or spg has check writing capabilities, since i pay my vendors with checks

With the SPG Amex card every 20,000 points (for spending $20,000 on the card) can be converted into 25,000 AA miles. Plus you get a 25,000 bonus points after opening this card (and spending $5,000 in 6 months)
Thus if you spend $400,000 on your SPG card it will convert into 500,000 AA miles (plus 25,000 opening bonus) - one round trip with Cathay to SGN in business is 110,000 AA miles - thus it would take 330,000 AA miles for 3 round trip business class tickets from LA to SGN. You could accomplish this well under one year. If you want to fly in Cathay business in Dec 2013, you should have enough points by Feb of 2013 (you should book these awards 330 days before travel to have best chance of getting award seats) - should be very easy with your spending.
Caveat, I am not sure if you must pay full amount of miles for a 2 year old - others will know better.
You have a lot to learn and should start reading here and educating yourself.
What's better than getting 3 business or first class round trip tickets to SGN for free? (i.e. for money you would spend on your business anyway) and have enough points left over for hotels as well.
PS You should open a business SPG card as you can document your business expenses easily.

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The only way you are going to earn substantial amounts of miles from spending is by putting the spend on credit cards. The credit-card companies charge vendors who accept credit cards substantial fees for the privilege of doing so; from those fees, the credit-card companies buy the miles/points that they award to their cardholders.

If your vendors will not accept payment by credit card, you're not going to earn a lot of miles (except for the sign-up bonuses) from those cards.

Do you currently have any credit cards which would show some sort of credit history? What about your wife? Before you get too involved in picking the right card(s) to use, you should try to figure out if you can qualify for them.

Next is looking at where you are spending your money. You say that you spend $400k per year through checks and your debit card. Most likely the spending you put on your debit card would be able to be shifted to being spent on a credit card. Expenses paid by check may or may not be able to be charged to the credit card, and it will depend on if the vendor accepts them or not. Vendors who accept credit cards pay a couple % in fees, which in turn is what pays for you earning the points. So they won't be thrilled at accepting a CC payment over a check.

Realistically, $400k in annual business spend doesn't necessarily mean you will be able to charge $400k to a points credit card. There are various cards that will give bonus points for spending in certain categories (i.e. the AMEX Business Gold gives double points for gas, advertising, and shipping) or cards that will give bonus for spending a certain amount in a year (i.e. Chase Ink Bold gives 47.5k bonus points for spending $100k on the card). Those can help build points faster when you can't put all your spending on the card(s)

As for not wanting to carry a lot of debt, there's no need to. If it makes you feel better, you could pay off your credit card balance at the end of each day. But there's no need to do this really, and as long as you pay off each statement in full by the due date, you will not be charged interest. With $400k in annual spend, you will probably have to pay it off more frequently than that in order to keep from maxing out the credit limit. With limited credit history, it's unlikely you would get the $40k credit limit needed. But with a $10k credit limit you could pay off the balance each week and be able to handle your spending. For single purchases over $10k, you could always call the CC company and pre-pay.

The good thing is that December 2013 is a long ways away and you have plenty of time to accumulate points/miles. The best advice I can give you is to NOT jump into anything right now, but take some time to browse these forums and maybe read up on a few of the blogs out there. The Points Guy has some great guides on earning points/miles and how to use them. He even has a whole beginner's guide section here: http://thepointsguy.com/beginners-guide/

At first there is so much information on these boards and it is a little overwhelming. But just read a little each day and things will really start to make sense. If you're willing to put a little time into learning more, after a couple weeks you'll be a pro with most of the answers yourself, and if you don't know the answer you will know exactly how/where to ask for it.

I'll echo the last comment about not jumping into anything too quickly. I think you should do the following:

1) Break down your spending. How much do you put on a debit card vs. checks?

2) Assume that nothing you pay by check can be shifted to a credit card. (As noted above, the vendor might not accept credit cards.)

3) Of the $_____ you spend on your debit card, are there any frequent categories? Shipping, advertising, gas, etc.?

4) Probably your best bet for flights, as others have noted, is to take Cathay Pacific. That means you're looking at 330,000 miles (110,000 per person x 3 people).

5) Also as noted above, you want to accumulate these miles by about February 2013. Just because Cathay offers tickets at 110k doesn't mean those seats will actually be available on the flights you want. Airlines release their inventory 330 days in advance, so you want to check immediately (the date you want to leave minus 330 days) after the seats are released.

6) NOW think of a plan of attack. One thing you could do is sign up for personal and business Citibank American Airlines cards. You can get two personal cards for yourself, and a business card for the business. This will net you about 150k AA miles right off the bat, because each card comes with a 50k sign up bonus. (Note, though, that to get the bonus, you have to spend a certain amount of money, either $1500 or $4000, within the first six months of holding the card. That means you would have to shift some expenses onto the personal credit cards.) If you got the sign up bonuses, then you need to accumulate 160,000 miles within the next 15 months. (Approx. $170,000 in spending -- 160k for the miles, plus about 10k to meet the minimum spending requirements to get the bonuses.)

Alternatively, you could get the Starwood Card. One downside to this card is that it is an Amex, and I've seen vendors who don't accept Amex. But you get a 25,000 signup bonus, and the starwood points can transfer to AA at a 1:1.2 ratio -- meaning 100k starwood points would get you 120k AA miles. I think the Citibank AA cards are a better deal for miles, but Starwood has the added bonus that the points can be used for (very nice) hotels.

By the way, the reason we keep talking about American Airlines is because AA miles can be used on Cathay Pacific. So you would rack up AA miles (via Citibank, the Starwood card, or elsewhere) first. Then in February 2013, go online and see what flights Cathay has from LAX to SGN. Finally, call AA in to say you want to book these particular flights.

Good luck!

Excellent advice from both you and roknroll.
A small correction - SPG transfer is at 1:1.25 ratio (20K pointsgives you 25K miles). Thus 100K points gives you 125K miles.
Addendum - you might have noticed that AA is in Chapt 11. This should not prove to be a problem (hopefully) as all other major US airlines went through Chapt 11 and came out stronger.

Oops!
 

Thanks for the correction -- yes, it's a 1 to 1.25 ratio.

To run the numbers a bit more. If you get three Citi/AA cards, you'll have 150k in bonuses and 160k in spend for 330k miles. You will have to pay for your own hotels, though.

If you get the Starwood, you'll have 25k in bonuses. To get 330k in miles, you'll need about 255k in spending (255k + 25k bonus = 280k, times 1.25 = 350k). Someone else can clarify if there's a minimum amount to transfer.

So Starwood will require more spending, but as noted before, will also allow you the flexibility of getting hotel points. It is also "cleaner", with just one credit card. If you are new to all of this, you may not want three different cards (Citi Personal Visa, Citi Personal Amex, Citi Business Amex) and you may not want, or be able, to put a small amount ($5500) of business expenses on the personal cards.

On the other hand, if you really want to go for it, you could get all four cards. Spend about $160k on the Citi cards for your miles by February 2013. Then, get a Starwood card and spend on it for the rest of 2013. By the time you get to December, you should have enough points for a nice hotel stay somewhere.

Also: if your relatives are anything like mine, they will insist that you stay with them and not stay in a hotel. If that's the case, you might save your Starwood points for a future vacation.

*Note: if you really want to get advanced, check out the routing rules on Cathay. You will get a stopover in Hong Kong for "free" (that is to say, for the same 110k miles per person). [This used to be the case, and I think it still is. Can someone confirm?] So you could visit family in Saigon (stay with relatives) and then spend a few days vacationing in Hong Kong for free (free stopover, free hotel with Starwood points). The possibilities are endless!

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"*Note: if you really want to get advanced, check out the routing rules on Cathay. You will get a stopover in Hong Kong for "free" (that is to say, for the same 110k miles per person). So you could visit family in Saigon (stay with relatives) and then spend a few days vacationing in Hong Kong for free (free stopover, free hotel with Starwood points)."

Sorry, no.

When redeeming AA miles for travel on CX (or any other carrier), it is AA's award rules that apply, not the other carrier's. On international one-way awards obtained with AAdvantage miles, the only stopover permitted is at the North American gateway.

So, then, could he stop-over in HNL instead of HKG? Just wondering if AA considers Hawaii part of North America for NA-Asia flights (I know they do for Europe).

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Yes, HNL is considered within North America for AA's award purposes. But to get a stopover in HNL on a LAX-SGN award, the "over-water" carrier would have to have a published, through fare between LAX and SGN, and the rules of that fare would have to permit a routing via HNL. That's how AA works it on international awards involving partner carriers.

I'm suprised that no one has mentioned the Chase Ink Bold card. It is a business card, has a great sign up bonus (50K) and has some bonus catagories where it gives more than the typical 1 pt/$. I don't have the card myself (no business) but it seems like it would be a good card to consider for the OP.

delete

Stopovers allowed only at the US gateway (LAX in this instance), but this means that if Cathay has valid routing through LAX to another US city, OP can get a free domestic round trip out of this.

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Nope. When using AA miles on an All-Partner award, he cannot get even one stopover in HKG.

ok i'm still new at this so i'm a little confused about all this talk of not being able to stop over here and yes, you can stop over there. can someone please explain to me what exactly is everyone talking about? why would i want to stop over anywhere? wouldn't i want to get to my destination as quickly as possible?

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"why would i want to stop over anywhere? wouldn't i want to get to my destination as quickly as possible?"

Some people want to visit only one destination on a trip, and get there as quickly as possible. Other people like to visit two (or more) destinations, especially when on vacation.

At this point, don't worry about the stop overs. I think some people have taken your original topic/question a bit off track.

But for your reference a stopover would acts sort of like combining two trips into one award ticket. For example a flight to Saigon on Cathay Pacific would have a layover in Hong Kong, and normally you would fly from Los Angeles to Hong Kong, have a couple hour layover in Hong Kong (never leaving the terminal), and then continuing on to Saigon. If you added a stopover, then you would fly from Los Angeles to Hong Kong and spend a couple of days or weeks there. Then you would continue on from Saigon to Hong Kong where you would spend a couple of days/weeks. Finally you would return home with the normal couple hour layover in Hong Kong (not spending extra time there). Instead of having to buy two separate tickets or awards, you can book it as a single trip from Los Angeles to Saigon with a stopover in Hong Kong.

Again, that's just an example of how a stopover would work, and I don't know if you can actually do this or not. For now don't worry about the stopovers, open jaws, or other types of bookings you could potentially do. Just figure how you will get the miles, and keep reading here at FlyerTalk. You'll pick it all up soon.

I think your first order of business is to see if your vendors will accept credit cards, and what kinds of credit cards, for your purchases. Even if one or two of them will, it should be possible to meet the minimum spending requirements for initial sign-on bonuses, some of these cards.

Some of your vendors might take Visa but not American Express, for example. Or, they might charge an extra "convenience" fee for using a cc vs. paying by check. (That fee would be to compensate for the extra processing fees a credit card charges, which is only fair).

You would need to crunch the numbers to see if the extra miles and points you earn would be worth the extra convenience fees those vendors might charge you.

http://travel.usatoday.com/alliance/...nders/569692/1

has a good overview of "big spenders" ie business instead of just personal credit card spending.

Also, it was mentioned earlier in the post, but after reading more in the other forums about your credit history, paying via check, etc... I think a BankDirect account is the way to go (along with maybe one card like the SPG Business or an Citi AAdvantage Business/Personal card).

http://www.bankdirect.com/programs/aadvantage.aspx
One Time Bonuses

• 1,000 miles upon opening a checking account. Open this and use it as your primary checking account. Keep the cash balance as high as possible.
• 1,000 miles upon opening a money market account. Open and fund with $1,000 and leave it alone.
• 10,000 miles for setting up direct deposit into your checking account. You probably don't have direct deposit, but if you do then great.
• 5,000 miles to use their bill pay service. Set up 3 bills to pay, easy!
• 5,000 miles to use their Visa check card. Pay using your debit card as you already do, easy!

Monthly Earnings

• Earn 100 miles per month for every $1,000 of the monthly average collected balance in your Mileage Checking Account up to the first $200,000 on deposit. Earn 25 miles per $1,000 for all balances over the first $200,000 on deposit.
• Earn 50 miles per month for every $1,000 of the monthly average collected balance in your Mileage Money Market Account up to the first $200,000 on deposit. Earn 25 miles per $1,000 for all balances over the first $200,000 on deposit.

This is a great option for you because you can continue to write checks and use your a debit card for payments while earning miles. Ideally you would use this in conjunction with a card like the SPG AMEX. Vendors who will not accept AMEX can be paid via check from your BankDirect checking account.

great article by the way, thanks for the advice. i think my problem right now is that i have too little credit. i have looked at the amex website and they require you to have excellent and well established credit. in fact a lot of the cc mentioned (ie chase, citibank) require execellent credit history. so i'm totally lost as to what to do. if anyone has any ideas besides a secured cc then i'm all ears. but the ironic thing is that you would think that these cc companies would want a costumer like me who always pays his debt and is responsible with money. unfortunately i just cant prove it to them it they don't give me a cc to show them. there in lies the catch 22

What kind of business
 

I agree with the sentiments expressed by many here. You need to take a look at your business and examine your habits before jumping in.

How much you can earn via credit cards depends a lot on what type of business you are in. If you are paying cash (which is not at all the same as paying with a check) then you may get a lot of resistance from your vendors to using credit cards because cash is a resource they wont want to loose. Checks can be traced and Cash can not. So if you are truly paying cash I would be surprised if your vendors will let you switch to Credit Card payments with out a fight.

So if you are in the restaurant business and you are going down to the Fish Market and the Wholesale produce market and that is where your money is going your chances of switching your purchase power to a credit card may be fairly low. On the other hand if you are buying stuff online and from Vendors you know take credit cards then that is a whole different matter. As mentioned above those credit cards charge a fee to the vendor so that means that they might also raise your prices if you use the credit card. Many of my vendors give a 2% discount for a check vs. a credit card. Find out before you switch over.

Also know that Amex charges a higher percentage of the transaction than Visa or MC to the vendor so many will only take Visa of MC. It's about 2.5% of the transaction on Visa or MC but 3.5% of the transaction on Amex. When my customer try to pay ME with Amex I always try to steer them to something else to save that extra percentage point. This might mean you get both and Amex and a MC.

Much depends on what type of business you are in and whether or not your Vendors find you to be an anomaly or business as usual. Do your homework. On the other hand you need to also consider what habits you can change to max your CC spending. For example do you go down to Costco when ever you need something and buy office supplies with a check? Consider buying from Staples or Office Max with a CC and waiting to purchase what you need till you have a $150. order so you can order online get free delivery PLUS a spend with a CC. You need to examine your business and your habits to make the most of this opportunity.

One more thing: Pull your own Fico score at myfico.com before you apply. You think you have little credit: you should find out for sure before you go this route. You may have better credit than you think (or maybe not). It's worth $14.95 to know so that you either choose to build your credit if you need to or you apply in a way that makes sense to your situation!

When I was first applying for credit cards (2 years ago) my first year of college, I had zero credit. However, I was still approved for an AMEX charge chard the Premier Rewards Gold and through that card, I was able to slowly build up my credit. I think a charge card is good for you since you stated that you don't like to carry debt and charge cards have to be paid in full every month. IMO I believe that obtaining a charge chard from AMEX is easier than an actual credit card since you pay it off every month. A couple months later, I applied for and was approved for the Continental mastercard and the American Airlines visa and I am approaching my next set of applications soon.

Another factor that can help as well is if you have any home mortgages and/or auto loans. These loans can be beneficial for you in obtaining credit cards.

Actually no, they don't want customers like you at all - they don't make any money on you.
They want customers who cannot pay the balance in full and carry large balances on which the CC company can charge 18% and higher.
But that's besides the point. You have to start somewhere to build up a credit and then you could get other credit cards. By paying on time you will obtain good credit with time.

LMAO, i guess you're right. i never thought of it like that. i guess would be the worst customer for the cc companies. they wouldn't get to charge me late fees, over limit fees, finance fees. do you hear that??? thats the sound of me crying me eyes out because they cant make money of me.

Another idea would be to apply for a credit card with whatever bank you're with now. Since you already have a relationship with them, they may be more likely to grant you credit.

It doesn't take much to build good credit. I got my first credit card from my local credit union. It had a very low credit limit of 1k, but I paid it iff in full each month. That was enough for the big banks like AMEX to give me a card later.

Really no credit?
 

I am very convinced that if you own a business that has vendors that you pay to the tune of $400K per year that you have great credit and you don't know about it. Vendors check your credit too. The phone company, your internet company, your supplies they are all checking your credit. There is just no way you could have a business of this size and not have credit. Go pull your credit score. FICO is the most common. Go find out and please share if you don't mind!

I also whole heatedly agree that you should talk to your bank and see what they have to offer you should you actually need to build credit. You are a valuable customer to them and they should want to keep you. Unless of course you have all this cash stuffed in your mattress?

LOL, now i don't stuff my cash in the mattress, though i am asian and i have heard of people doing this back in the old days. I did have a mortgage companty run my credit about 3 years ago when we were trying to buy our first house. and they said the exact same thing....that my credit history wasn't long enough. whatever that means. i really don't use or have any use for credit. everything i have owned i have purchase with cash, debit card or checks. i have only owned 2 cars in my life. my first one was a 1987 toyota cressida. anyone ever heard of those? i drove that thing to the ground. it was great and dependable. the only time i ever bought a brand new car was my 2007 Acura MDX. once again, paid for in full. the dealer gave me a funny look when i said i would pay for it in full. i didn't know why at the time. but apparently they make a bulk of their money in the financing of a vehicle not the actual sale of a vehicle.
when i couldn't get pre-approved for a mortgage loan, i decided that we would take a different approach. we began to save and be even more thrifty with our money. in the end, i saved up enough money to purchase our first home for a little over $300,000. the sellers accepted our offer even though they said they had gotten higher offers from other people. but the security of having the money right away was more appealing to them. so i havent bothered to build any credit. to answer your question about the vendors, my vendors do not check credit. but they expect payment everytime a delivery is made. no IOU,not tab, or " I'll pay you next week"

I really like this suggestion to apply for an American Express Priority Rewards Gold card. It is a charge card, meaning it must be paid off every month, and the length of time until the bill is due (the float) tends to be shorter. This card is free the first year, then has a $175 annual fee. You get 3 points per dollar on airfare, 2 points per dollar on gas and groceries, and 1 point per dollar on everything else. As a charge card, there is no credit limit, so businesses are able to charge high dollar amounts each month and pay it off at the end of the month; it wouldn't hurt to pay twice a month if you wanted. This card accrues Membership Rewards (MR) points, which can be transferred 1:1 to airlines such as Delta, British Airways, Air Canada, ANA, Virgin Atlantic, and Singapore Airlines. This program isn't as strong as it used to be since Continental left as a transfer partner and BA devalued its program, but it will still get you a frequent flyer ticket and lots of points while you build your credit. Mommy Points can refer you to the best sign up offer I am aware of today, 25,000 MR points. I highly recommend you apply for the Amex Priority Rewards Gold card and report back.

There is also a business Priority Rewards Gold card that I am not as familiar with. I am no expert on building credit, but I do have an Amex Gold card and it sounds like a good suggestion to me.

On Delta you would need 120,000 miles for one low level business class seat round trip from the continental US to Vietnam. Yes, it is possible to save enough for 3 seats in a year with your level of spending. Delta offers transfer bonuses fairly frequently which can increase the value of your MR points (100,000 MR points become 150,000 Delta miles with a 50% transfer bonus). They are also notorious for their stinginess in releasing low level award seats. But the advantage of MR points is you can check award availability on several airlines and transfer to the one with the best availability. Good luck!