How to find a flight with more segments
 

Gurus,

I need to go from point A to point B. Can someone guide me how to look for flights that have more segments in between? Specifically looking for United Airline flights as preference.

While doing a search on kayak/airline sites, I've selected 2 or more connections, but I think there are some more ways/websites that I'm unaware of, where we can find/buy flights with more connections.

Thanks in advance!

I've been doing this some, thinking that segments will be an easier way for me to get to status than miles, and increase the chances of a bump.

I've been using www.itasoftware.com.

Consider if I was looking for MSY-LAX, with as many stops on UA as possible. I might start with a normal search and note a baseline UA route. Imagine that my baseline (lowest cost) was MSY-ORD-LAX on the departure and the return.

and then start looking for longer routings by doing:
msy :: ua ua
lax :: ua ord ua

And then msy :: ua ua ua for 3 segments, and msy :: ua ua ua ua for 4. I'll come back to the return in a second.

The problem is that I think the ITA software engine hunts possibilities until it times out and then just presents the best of what it found. By the time you hit 4 segments, the realm of possibilities exceeds the time to explore all of them so I'm rarely successful with 4 or more initially. This is also why I locked the return into a specific routing of LAX-ORD-MSY based on my baseline fare. My initial searches are about exploring what I can do on the outbound flight initially and I want to hold the return constant since I'll come back to that later. The less time the engine spends looking at the return, the more time it can hunt for longer, cheaper routings on the departure.

I also pay attention to which airports are coming up consistently and inexpensively. Suppose that as I'm looking at 2 and 3 leg outbound flights, I notice that the best deals keep coming up as MSY-ORD. In that case, I might tell the engine that I want to explore options from MSY to LAX where ORD is the first stop. This means the processing time of exploring options via DEN or SFO can be ignored for the first leg and thus the engine will get deeper into 4 and 5 segment routes. In that case, I might try the following for a 4 segment outbound route where ord is the first stop.

msy :: ua ord ua ua ua
lax :: ua ord ua

Another useful directive is the + symbol. I can do the same search above but look for 4 or more segments with the following syntax:
msy :: ua ord ua ua ua+
lax :: ua ord ua

Another common example I've found is that I can see there's a segment inbound to my destination that's consistently coming up. Imagine that SFO-LAX keeps coming up as the last segment in my searches. Just as I locked in the first segment, I can easily lock in the last, such as this search for MSY-ORD-(unknown)-(unknown)-SFO-LAX, all on UA:
msy :: ua ord ua ua ua SFO ua
lax :: ua ord ua

Once I feel like I've exhausted the outbound options and found what I want, I reverse the process with the return. Imagine that I found the best I could do was MSY-ORD-DEN-SFO-LAX. I'd then update my "baseline" price and change my criteria to something like:
msy :: ua ord ua den ua sfo ua
lax :: ua ua

To look for 2 segment returns. Then 3, then 4. And so forth, especially focusing on the first and last segments just like I did on the departure.

I've begun to doubt the extent to which this is worth it over a pure mileage run. In playing around with this technique, I've found that I can generally tack on extra segments with Delta for ~$20 each. A couple months ago I did MSY-ATL-BWI-DTW-MKE-MSP. I got some more miles but I turned a normal 2-segment flight into 5.

My question, not yours, that I haven't thought much about is whether this is worth it, at least financially. Suppose that I could double my segments in a year from 30-60 by doing this. The 30 additional segments would be get me from silver to gold at a cost of ~$600. I could also fly another 25,000 miles for the same effect.

The question I suppose then is whether I could get 25,000 miles for $600. That's not impossible but not easy either (if it is, please shoot me some hints!). But it looks easier than all these extra segments, both finding them and flying them. I suppose that's why you don't see many people looking at maximizing segments. At the margin though, say if you were at 24 of 30 segments, and just wanted to get there, finding a 3-segment each-way trip could well be worth it.

By the way, while doing this, I discovered that the Delta kiosks couldn't print more than 3 boarding passes at a shot and they directed me to a ticketing agent. They seemed quite surprised by my 5 segment routing from MSY-MSP, offered that they could put me on something more direct. I just replied that there wouldn't be any adventure in that, took my 3 boarding passes and went on my way. In DTW, I was able to use a kiosk to print the remaining two and all went well.

Good luck!

I'm not the OP but I wanted to express my thanks for the reply and giving us your logic. I also haven't been able to find trips with many segments on ITA so now I know how to coax the site to give them to me. Might even result in significantly increased mileage on int'l itineraries, if the taxes don't add too much $$.

Thanks. I have been wondering how to do this!

Glad I'm able to help some. I've learned a lot from this group of people in the last 5 months that I've been paying attention.

A few other thoughts that have been on my mind since I wrote it:
1) It might be obvious but in case it isn't, a methodical approach is key here. If you find a good route search, record it so you can recreate it. I went too quickly a few times, changing too much, and lost track of a deal I found. That really forced me to develop a methodology rather than just trying random things. The best suggestion though: 1 change at a time. When you make 2 changes, you don't know which change was a good one and you're effectively just guessing.

2) I occasionally toss hubs into the mix, just to see what happens. Usually this is because I'm not finding an obvious good paths out of my origination or into my destination during my 2-3 level deep searches.

3) I believe there's a directive to specify the exact flight. That may be better than just tossing in the airport. On the plus side, it will eliminate a lot more possibilities the given segment, thus getting deeper into the extended route search. On the negative side though, I often find there are several fares of the same price to the initial connection or for the last connection and specifying the exact flight might be too restrictive. I haven't tried this refinement yet though so it could be good or bad.

4) I'm not sure of the exact phrasing re. stops vs. plane changes, but if you're maximizing MQS, be aware that a stop that stays on the same plane (flight number?) doesn't result in another segment (if I understand that correctly). When I did this recently, I just happened to notice that Delta's web site was reporting one fewer MQS than I expected and it was due to the stop vs. plane change. I might be using the wrong terms here.

5) It can be painfully time consuming.

Also, I struggled some with how to read the search line and realized that it may not be entirely intuitive. Take the following example:

msy :: ua ord ua den ua sfo ua
lax :: ua ua

You can read line 1 as:
MSY on UA to ORD on UA to DEN on UA to SFO on UA to LAX.
LAX is implied in line 1, given that this is a RT.

The 2nd line is a bit different because it's missing an airport. You can read that as:
LAX on UA to <somewhere> on UA to MSY
MSY is implied in line 2, given that this is a RT.

This link takes you to the ITA software route language screen which details much more about how to do it.
http://matrix.itasoftware.com/cvg/di...dvanced-topics

I think 20 years of writing software helps me out here...

This was a nice distraction from a painful process of applying regression analysis to an economic paper. I wish my calculus and stats weren't so rusty. Oh well... Back to regressions and Bureau of Labor Statistics data.

Hi msp2msy,

Many thanks for such an elaborate reply! I love the fact that this is a genuine forum where people share their experiences to help each other out.

My reason for looking for multiple segments was to increase the mileage accrual from the flight, so there are days when I have to take a business related flight on a Sunday, and rather than do a mileage run on my personal trip, I thought better to do mileage run with the same end points, but many segments in between to icnrease mileage accrual.

I still have to digest the above posts, when I'll probably be back with more questions, but really thanks again for such a detailed explanation.

You're one of those magicians, who aren't afraid to let their tricks out in the open!!!

msp2msy, welcome to FT (a month late). Great comprehensive post.

Bobette

I agree.
I use itasoftware all the time, and those tips really help alot. But I find it hard to duplicate the results on United if I am doing multiple open jaw flights with a stop over.

For example, doing something like...
JFK to SFO with a stop at DEN on Oct 23, then
SFO to HNL on another leg Oct 27 and the final
KOA to LGA with a stop at DEN on Nov 13

Duplicating this query from ITA is impossible with United. It seems that I have to book them all separately.

Okay, so you have found multi segments on itasoftware.com. That's great. But, where do you go to book the ticket and get it at the price you find it in ita? I have had the hardest time in figuring that portion out. Thanks.

My approach to actually booking segment runs
 

Sorry that wasn't clear...

ITASoftware makes the engines that some (many?) travel sites use. They do not sell tickets though.

So once you find it, you need to use another site. I usually go direct to the airline and have only done this with Delta.

If you're using Delta.com, you should do a multi-segment trip. That allows up to 6, if I recall correctly. You may be doing quite a bit more than that (I was). In that case, I found that entering pairs where I skipped the hub city worked well.

So, imagine that I was doing MSY>ATL>BWI>DTW>MKE>MSP. ATL, DTW, and MSP are hubs for Delta. I could just enter them individually but I'd have had no room for the return flight (which was MSP>MKE>ATL>MSY) so I needed to compress the flight some. I believe I entered it as follows:

MSY>BWI
BWI>MKE
MKE>MSP

There aren't that many (any?) MSY to BWI flights for segment 1 so it shows options for routing through Atlanta for segment 1. Viola, you've got more than one flight segment per segment entered into the multi-segment search at Delta. There are limits to this but you can probably get to 10-12 total segments this way. I assume the approach with other carriers would be similar.

I'd sure love anyone else that's done thus stuff to pipe in! I've played with this a fair bit but only really flow two segment runs. There's probably a lot I don't know.

Good luck!

You probably know that you can book at the airline's website, or even Orbitz/Kayak/whatever using the multi-city function. What you may not realize is that it matters (at least for AA.com) what you choose as the time of departure for each flight segment. For example, on AA.com I wanted the flight departing at 3:30pm, but it would not come up until I chose "Evening" from the drop-down menu. Even "Early evening" didn't give me that particular flight and "Anytime" is not an option. What a pain!

Quoted: "Okay, so you have found multi segments on itasoftware.com. That's great. But, where do you go to book the ticket and get it at the price you find it in ita? I have had the hardest time in figuring that portion out."

Great point! I spent hours figuring this stuff out. It's not obvious and takes a lot of tweaking along the way. Sometimes though, it's a dead end (e.g. when the time between flights it tighter on ITA than the airline will allow).

Last night, I just gave in and booked a day in Singapore. That'll take me as far as I want to go. $1300 total cost, ~42k MQM, and ~50k RDM. ~45 hours flight time and 2 days off work. For me, that's a better deal than the segment run. The miles I get back and will use later this year will recoup much of my cost by saving money on flights we were planning on buying. Delta's really opened up their domestic reward calendar, at least for our routes.

No worries. just looking for help. Also, I am out of MSP. Having a VERY VERY hard tome finding any good MRs under .085cpm. Any help folks?

Assuming you're working on Delta MR's since you're in MSP, the deals all seem to leverage the BNA/RDU/STL/PIT double MQM deal.

I now live in New Orleans but commute to MSP often. New Orleans is difficult for mileage runs so positioning seems a given. I tried looking at domestic MR's from those cities, especially combined with travel I was already trying to do such as a conference in LAS, but never could make it really work.

The MR forum lists a few DL MR's. The Singapore is the furthest and seems likely to have the lowest CPM after positioning but is obviously a big commitment. LIM seems like a good one. All of them probably require a weekday or two to make work.

Thank you msp2msy for a very clear post and explanation - I really enoyed reading through this thread the first time - and look forward to poring over it some more. Although I have been able to do some searches similar to yours, I was not quite sure how I ended up with certain results and then failed to be able to replicate them. I can see it a bit more clearly with your examples.

Uhm, good mileage runs are generally considered to be about 3-4cpm. Under 1cpm would be a crazy bargain and under .1cpm would be basically free -- you're looking for a round-the-world trip for $20?

Glad it was helpful. :)

Well, I've done another segment run of sorts, this time leveraging a work trip and some Amex MR points. I'm kind of proud of this though the MR points were probably worth more than I'm fairly valuing them at.

I pretty much followed the approach I described here. Here's what I came up with:

One-way positioning flight paid for with Amex MR:
MSY-ATL-PIT
$116 cash price
Only nets 1026 MQM.

Round Trip:
PIT-ATL-LAS(stop)-LAX-IND-CVG-PIT
$397.70
Nets 11174 MQM due to double miles promo and 15587 due to bonus miles.

One-way flight paid for with Amex MR:
PIT-DTW-MKE-MSP
$152.10
1500 MQM/RDM.

Total cost $662.20 for 13,700 MQM. $.048/MQM. Not great.

But if I'd just gone with the easy routing, I'd have earned spent nearly the same $318.60 and only earned 3634 MQM.

So, by leveraging that investment I added 10066 MQM at a cost of $347.60 to me (and some time) at a more respectable $.034/MQM.

The RDM bonus from PIT on Delta also netted out to another 4433 RDM which is worth something.

Anyway, I'd say that the process took about 3 hours of playing with scheduling via multiple different promo cities. So it works but it is definitely time consuming. The biggest issue for me was that the return from Las Vegas after the show had to be a late afternoon flight which meant I got into BNA/PIT/RDU/STL so late that I couldn't get another flight that evening. I didn't want to get a hotel so I sent myself further west to LAX and turned it into an overnight flight back to PIT. A bit extra money.

I'm pretty excited. Between this and the Singapore trip, I'll be solidly into gold status.

Moderator:

Could we get this put on a sticky thread? A fantastick descript of how to go about this.

In the interest of academic honesty, I went back and tried to find some of the threads that I originally found helpful.

This one most of all: How to construct a mileage run.

There's not a whole lot different in how you book a segment run vs. a mileage run and a segment run and VPescado did a great job.

This link generally covers MR's

If I described it more simply than others in the past, I'm happy, but I have to give credit where credit's due.

Lots and lots to read. I should really go back myself and study a bit more. Now that I've done it, I'll probably understand a few things I missed in the initial reading.

As the OP inquired specifically about UA, it's worth noting that UA tightened up its routing rules pretty sharply about 2 months ago, making it impossible (or prohibitively expensive) to build in lots of gratuitous segments. See this thread, and the blog posts it links to, for more details.

Hi beltway, thanks for posting the link to UA tightening up the rules.

It affects me bad, as I'm about 15K away from UA Premier Exec status, and was counting on the convoluted routings to help me get there faster...oh well, I'll see what knowledge I get on this thread helps me put UA system to test :-)

Don't give up yet. There still may be some interesting possibilities in the winter, especially if you don't mind a bit of suspense in terms of how your trip will eventually work out. During irregular ops (in this case, optimized by flying when the weather can be dicey), you end up re-booked and those re-books often put you into Y at 1.5x EQM/EQS. It can be a bit scary leaving your mileage run to the last month of the year, but it's also exciting, and there's something liberating about putting yourself in the hands of gate agents to help you out. Strangely enough, they often seem more than willing to help you with your project. My first and only true mileage run fell apart at the end of the first of five segments on day 1. I'm in Santa Barbara (SBA), it's dumping outside so bad you can't even see the planes on the runway, I've got 4 more segments to get to IAD. I go up to the GA and she's already got me on the screen. Two screens, actually. She had been looking at my itin, trying to figure out what to do with me. Bless her soul, she figured out how to get me to IAD by dropping one segment but almost no miles.

I didn't know about the ita tool at the time; I constructed my itin by looking at the deals UA was offering on various flights and sorta pieced them together. $308 SFO-IAD-SFO with 8 segments in the end, about 8k miles x2 (DEQM). And the most fun I've ever had flying.

Thanks for the encouraging words.

To be perfectly candid, I've never done a true mileage run, I mean from personal expense taking long flights only to get mileage...oh wait! I did it one time just to use some coupons. Flew from SJC to Long Beach, cabbed to LAX, and flew same day return LAX to SFO. Don't ask me why, had some reason which seemed right at that time, maybe not now :-)

I'll try to construct a mileage run with more segments or mileage with the same journey that I take with my business travel, let's see what I end up with, but your post has given me hope, and sense of excitement hearing your stories, especially the liberating comment at the mercy of Gate Agents :-)

If you head over to Mileage Run Discussion (NOT Deals) and post an inquiry with the general contours of what you're looking for (preferred carrier/alliance, origination, approx dates, miles/segments objective), folks will often offer suggestions or even do a few quick searches out of idle curiosity.